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jra at baylink.com
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 Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:52 am Post subject: [asterisk-biz] OT: Licensing preferences |
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On Wed, Apr 02, 2008 at 10:30:29PM +0200, Trixter aka Bret McDanel wrote:
| Quote: | dtmf in asterisk (rfc2833) violates the rfc. There are many switches
that usually are only "big carrier types" that do not properly deal with
what asterisk sends. I gave oej specifics as he was doing something
relating to a filed bug on this issue. I even wrote a patch, but until
asterisk is no longer released gpl I cant contribute it (personal thing
just as some wont contribute unless its gpl I wont contribute if it is).
|
Just curious why you look at it that way, Bret.
The only reason I could see why someone would decline to contribute
to a GPLd project would seem to be handily dealt with merely by
dual-licensing your code GPL and BSD.
On the other hand, it may be that you're complaining about *having to
assign your copyright to Digium*, which would be an entirely different
issue: you would be unhappy that they could then themselves dual-license
it commercially.
Is that the situation that troubles you?
Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com
Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274
Those who cast the vote decide nothing.
Those who count the vote decide everything.
-- (Joseph Stalin)
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trixter at 0xdecafbad.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 11:20 am Post subject: [asterisk-biz] OT: Licensing preferences |
|
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On Thu, 2008-04-03 at 11:46 -0400, Jay R. Ashworth wrote:
| Quote: | Just curious why you look at it that way, Bret.
The only reason I could see why someone would decline to contribute
to a GPLd project would seem to be handily dealt with merely by
dual-licensing your code GPL and BSD.
|
You suggested that I release my code under a dual license including the
gpl in response to me saying I wont release gpl. Uhh come on you can be
more clever that that. I dont release gpl code anymore (since 1998)
asking me to release gpl isnt going to make that happen.
There are license problems that arise when you do dual license, for
example the gpl cannot co-exist with anything else, when it is used with
something else it takes over.
So lets say that someone releases gpl/bsd dual license stuff. Ok, but
what happens when someone wants to make it bsd only? You cant stop
that, nor can you stop a gpl only variant (although that is easier to
do, 1 line of gpl code causes 100M lines of non gpl code to magically
become gpl).
At the end of the day when you do a multi-license release you are
effectively granting someone permission to pick the license that applies
and will apply to privately maintained contributions, which further
excludes the other license(s) from coming back.
Case and point mozilla does a tri license, gpl,mpl and I believe bsd.
Now the gpl and mpl are incompatible with each other. They cannot
co-exist (by definition anything that does not let the gpl take over
100% is incompatible, anything that does let it take over is
compatible). Now if I take the mozilla code, whichever one it may be,
and use it with a mpl project (or add in stuff that is mpl compatible
but gpl incompatible) how can the multi-license gpl part survive?
The reality is that dual licensing may seem good on paper but when you
actually look at what happens, you are giving people the right to choose
the license that they like best. Now if asterisk were to do that I
would contribute in a heart beat. But that isnt likely to happen.
Of course that creates a licensing nightmare, using teh same mozilla
tri-license example, if I contribute MPL only code then it cannot be
allowed in any GPL release since the MPL only is GPL incompatible.
Which means that all contributions have to be under all the licenses (or
at least compatible).
| Quote: | On the other hand, it may be that you're complaining about *having to
assign your copyright to Digium*, which would be an entirely different
issue: you would be unhappy that they could then themselves dual-license
it commercially.
|
| Quote: | Is that the situation that troubles you?
|
no, did I say that was the situation that troubled me? I thought I was
clear when I said that I do not release gpl stuff. And you dont assign
copyright to digium anyway, you just give them full rights to use it
however they see fit, you still retain copyright, and you still can do
whatever you want with your code. If you assigned copyright to digium,
you would have to ask their permission to use it, and that is not the
case, further the copyright notices would only say digium and would not
say the individual author if it were assigned.
I never once even implied that this was the issue, so I dont know how
you got to this point.
So to be clear, yet again, I personally started refusing to contribute
code to gpl released products in 1998. I personally do not release
anything gpl or contribute code to gpl projects. It is a personal
choice, it is one that I made after many contributions dating back to
the early 90s. I will tell people specifically what is wrong, as I have
done in the past with asterisk specifically as well as other programs,
but I will not contribute any code as long as it is licensed gpl.
My reasons for this is all the harm that the gpl causes to open source
developers and how it makes it harder to be an open source developer.
In short this is not the appropriate place to discuss how the gpl harms
open source, so I will just close now.
--
Trixter http://www.0xdecafbad.com Bret McDanel
Belfast +44 28 9099 6461 US +1 516 687 5200
http://www.trxtel.com the phone company that pays you!
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outbackdingo at gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 11:26 am Post subject: [asterisk-biz] OT: Licensing preferences |
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I also wouldnt/cant contribute to GPL licensed software, due to personal reasons and well restrictions set by employers at times. I actually avoid all use of GPL software in development whenever possible which is 90% of the time. My preference is when it comes to using software, well for customers or products, the BSD licensed software always wins, even if it requires more work.
On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 10:46 PM, Jay R. Ashworth <jra@baylink.com (jra@baylink.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | On Wed, Apr 02, 2008 at 10:30:29PM +0200, Trixter aka Bret McDanel wrote:
| Quote: | dtmf in asterisk (rfc2833) violates the rfc. There are many switches
that usually are only "big carrier types" that do not properly deal with
what asterisk sends. I gave oej specifics as he was doing something
relating to a filed bug on this issue. I even wrote a patch, but until
asterisk is no longer released gpl I cant contribute it (personal thing
just as some wont contribute unless its gpl I wont contribute if it is).
|
Just curious why you look at it that way, Bret.
The only reason I could see why someone would decline to contribute
to a GPLd project would seem to be handily dealt with merely by
dual-licensing your code GPL and BSD.
On the other hand, it may be that you're complaining about *having to
assign your copyright to Digium*, which would be an entirely different
issue: you would be unhappy that they could then themselves dual-license
it commercially.
Is that the situation that troubles you?
Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com (jra@baylink.com)
Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274
Those who cast the vote decide nothing.
Those who count the vote decide everything.
-- (Joseph Stalin)
_______________________________________________
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jra at baylink.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 6:44 pm Post subject: [asterisk-biz] OT: Licensing preferences |
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On Thu, Apr 03, 2008 at 06:15:06PM +0200, Trixter aka Bret McDanel wrote:
| Quote: | | Quote: | On the other hand, it may be that you're complaining about *having to
assign your copyright to Digium*, which would be an entirely different
issue: you would be unhappy that they could then themselves dual-license
it commercially.
|
| Quote: | Is that the situation that troubles you?
|
no, did I say that was the situation that troubled me?
|
You didnt' say *anything* useful, Bret, all the way down to here:
| Quote: | My reasons for this is all the harm that the gpl causes to open source
developers and how it makes it harder to be an open source developer.
In short this is not the appropriate place to discuss how the gpl harms
open source, so I will just close now.
|
where you continued to decline to answer in favor of handwaving.
My observation of the last 30 years of Unix development clearly differs
from yours, and you clearly don't want to discuss it, so you go right
along, and I won't ask anymore.
Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com
Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274
Those who cast the vote decide nothing.
Those who count the vote decide everything.
-- (Joseph Stalin)
_______________________________________________
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trixter at 0xdecafbad.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 6:55 pm Post subject: [asterisk-biz] OT: Licensing preferences |
|
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On Thu, 2008-04-03 at 19:38 -0400, Jay R. Ashworth wrote:
| Quote: | where you continued to decline to answer in favor of handwaving.
|
Ok, it was about my opinion, why do you feel that you can demand an
explanation of my feelings on an off topic subject?
| Quote: | My observation of the last 30 years of Unix development clearly differs
from yours, and you clearly don't want to discuss it, so you go right
along, and I won't ask anymore.
|
You really should sit back for a while you seemed to have gotten quite
upset over the fact that I did not think to justify my feelings to you.
You have ranted about some 30 years in unix development which has
nothing to do with my feelings on a software license, nor does it have
anything to do with whether or not I should justify them to you. I also
dont know why a difference in backgrounds (30 years ago I was using
primes for example) matters about whether or not to discuss why I feel
the way I do about the GPL. This isnt even the proper venue for that
conversation anyway.
Why you are this upset is a real mystery to me, the conversation was
quite calm prior to this, and it was on something that really was just a
personal opinion on a specific software license.
Are you this upset because I dont like the GPL? That would seem odd,
its not like I was rejecting you personally, denouncing your religion or
anything that way, just saying that I did not like that particular
license.
--
Trixter http://www.0xdecafbad.com Bret McDanel
Belfast +44 28 9099 6461 US +1 516 687 5200
http://www.trxtel.com the phone company that pays you!
_______________________________________________
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aklists at mixdown.ca
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:02 pm Post subject: [asterisk-biz] OT: Licensing preferences |
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On April 3, 2008 07:50:04 pm Trixter aka Bret McDanel wrote:
| Quote: | Ok, it was about my opinion, why do you feel that you can demand an
explanation of my feelings on an off topic subject?
|
You're the one who opened the subject. He asked. I'm actually pretty curious
too. You decline to answer, he called you on it, and now you're defensive.
If you don't want to answer, fine, but don't try to paint it like he did
anything wrong here. You made an (in my opinion) extraordinary claim, he was
just looking for some clarification.
Your opinion's absolutely your own., and nobody can take it away from you.
| Quote: | You really should sit back for a while you seemed to have gotten quite
upset over the fact that I did not think to justify my feelings to you.
|
? Clearly you're the one upset here, Bret.
-A.
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trixter at 0xdecafbad.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:13 pm Post subject: [asterisk-biz] OT: Licensing preferences |
|
|
On Thu, 2008-04-03 at 19:56 -0400, Andrew Kohlsmith (lists) wrote:
| Quote: | On April 3, 2008 07:50:04 pm Trixter aka Bret McDanel wrote:
| Quote: | Ok, it was about my opinion, why do you feel that you can demand an
explanation of my feelings on an off topic subject?
|
You're the one who opened the subject. He asked. I'm actually pretty curious
too. You decline to answer, he called you on it, and now you're defensive.
If you don't want to answer, fine, but don't try to paint it like he did
anything wrong here. You made an (in my opinion) extraordinary claim, he was
just looking for some clarification.
|
Ok so again what is extraordinary about I wont contribute to gpl
projects? That is hardly extraordinary, and I really do not think it
warrants this much time. I have answered people who asked privately
because it is not a proper venue for this subject. This is the
asterisk-biz list, this has little to do with asterisk anymore, and
nothing to do with business.
| Quote: | | Quote: | You really should sit back for a while you seemed to have gotten quite
upset over the fact that I did not think to justify my feelings to you.
|
? Clearly you're the one upset here, Bret.
|
I dont think its that clear, because I am not the one throwing tantrums
because someone failed to justify their feelings. Nor am I the one
saying that someone is defensive by suggesting that this is not the
proper venue. All I have done is say that this is not the proper place
to discuss why I like or dislike a particular software license.
Making statements like you did to try to make mine seem less valid is
not only a poor debate tactic, but one that indicates desperation. Yes
I dont like the gpl, get over it, its a personal choice I dont have to
like the same things you do, that is what makes us unique humans.
I am thinking that this topic is too sensitive for some viewers and will
no longer entertain public comments on this list relating to my feelings
of a software license.
for anyone else thinking of jumping into the fray, step back for a
second and repeat 3 times - its just a software license its not a
religion.
--
Trixter http://www.0xdecafbad.com Bret McDanel
Belfast +44 28 9099 6461 US +1 516 687 5200
http://www.trxtel.com the phone company that pays you!
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jra at baylink.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:16 pm Post subject: [asterisk-biz] OT: Licensing preferences |
|
|
On Fri, Apr 04, 2008 at 01:50:04AM +0200, Trixter aka Bret McDanel wrote:
| Quote: | On Thu, 2008-04-03 at 19:38 -0400, Jay R. Ashworth wrote:
| Quote: | where you continued to decline to answer in favor of handwaving.
|
Ok, it was about my opinion, why do you feel that you can demand an
explanation of my feelings on an off topic subject?
|
Who said anything about demanding?
I inquired politely; you got in my face. I don't think that precludes
my reacting the way I did.
| Quote: | | Quote: | My observation of the last 30 years of Unix development clearly differs
from yours, and you clearly don't want to discuss it, so you go right
along, and I won't ask anymore.
|
You really should sit back for a while you seemed to have gotten quite
upset over the fact that I did not think to justify my feelings to you.
You have ranted about some 30 years in unix development which has
nothing to do with my feelings on a software license, nor does it have
anything to do with whether or not I should justify them to you. I also
dont know why a difference in backgrounds (30 years ago I was using
primes for example) matters about whether or not to discuss why I feel
the way I do about the GPL. This isnt even the proper venue for that
conversation anyway.
Why you are this upset is a real mystery to me, the conversation was
quite calm prior to this, and it was on something that really was just a
personal opinion on a specific software license.
Are you this upset because I dont like the GPL? That would seem odd,
its not like I was rejecting you personally, denouncing your religion or
anything that way, just saying that I did not like that particular
license.
|
I asked a polite question, you basically told me to &^%@#$ off. I
shouldn't react poorly to that?
"I don't really want to get into it" is probably where you should have
started, and then stopped.
Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com
Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274
Those who cast the vote decide nothing.
Those who count the vote decide everything.
-- (Joseph Stalin)
_______________________________________________
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jra at baylink.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:19 pm Post subject: [asterisk-biz] OT: Licensing preferences |
|
|
On Fri, Apr 04, 2008 at 02:08:58AM +0200, Trixter aka Bret McDanel wrote:
| Quote: | I dont think its that clear, because I am not the one throwing tantrums
because someone failed to justify their feelings. Nor am I the one
saying that someone is defensive by suggesting that this is not the
proper venue. All I have done is say that this is not the proper place
to discuss why I like or dislike a particular software license.
Making statements like you did to try to make mine seem less valid is
not only a poor debate tactic, but one that indicates desperation. Yes
I dont like the gpl, get over it, its a personal choice I dont have to
like the same things you do, that is what makes us unique humans.
|
<plonk>
Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com
Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274
Those who cast the vote decide nothing.
Those who count the vote decide everything.
-- (Joseph Stalin)
_______________________________________________
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stotaro at totarotechn...
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:28 pm Post subject: [asterisk-biz] OT: Licensing preferences |
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|
On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 8:11 PM, Jay R. Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Fri, Apr 04, 2008 at 01:50:04AM +0200, Trixter aka Bret McDanel wrote:
| Quote: | On Thu, 2008-04-03 at 19:38 -0400, Jay R. Ashworth wrote:
| Quote: | where you continued to decline to answer in favor of handwaving.
|
Ok, it was about my opinion, why do you feel that you can demand an
explanation of my feelings on an off topic subject?
|
Who said anything about demanding?
I inquired politely; you got in my face. I don't think that precludes
my reacting the way I did.
| Quote: | | Quote: | My observation of the last 30 years of Unix development clearly differs
from yours, and you clearly don't want to discuss it, so you go right
along, and I won't ask anymore.
|
You really should sit back for a while you seemed to have gotten quite
upset over the fact that I did not think to justify my feelings to you.
You have ranted about some 30 years in unix development which has
nothing to do with my feelings on a software license, nor does it have
anything to do with whether or not I should justify them to you. I also
dont know why a difference in backgrounds (30 years ago I was using
primes for example) matters about whether or not to discuss why I feel
the way I do about the GPL. This isnt even the proper venue for that
conversation anyway.
Why you are this upset is a real mystery to me, the conversation was
quite calm prior to this, and it was on something that really was just a
personal opinion on a specific software license.
Are you this upset because I dont like the GPL? That would seem odd,
its not like I was rejecting you personally, denouncing your religion or
anything that way, just saying that I did not like that particular
license.
|
I asked a polite question, you basically told me to &^%@#$ off. I
shouldn't react poorly to that?
"I don't really want to get into it" is probably where you should have
started, and then stopped.
Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com
Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274
Those who cast the vote decide nothing.
Those who count the vote decide everything.
-- (Joseph Stalin)
|
Look you two, you are both very valuable members of this community.
Just quit this conversation. It is an infinite loop and has
absolutely nothing to do with Asterisk (Just licensing) and nothing to
do with biz except licensing.
Agree to disagree. Everyone has their own opinion has no obligation
to explain why if they don't care to.
Email is a tough way to communicate since over 75% of communication is
non-verbal.
Let it go.
Thanks,
Steve Totaro
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jra at baylink.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:38 pm Post subject: [asterisk-biz] OT: Licensing preferences |
|
|
On Thu, Apr 03, 2008 at 08:22:58PM -0400, Steve Totaro wrote:
| Quote: | Look you two, you are both very valuable members of this community.
|
Well, I'm flattered, but you may give me too much credit. Nonetheless,
Bret's in my kill file, and I'm done with it.
Cheers,
- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com
Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274
Those who cast the vote decide nothing.
Those who count the vote decide everything.
-- (Joseph Stalin)
_______________________________________________
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stotaro at totarotechn...
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:52 pm Post subject: [asterisk-biz] OT: Licensing preferences |
|
|
On Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 8:34 PM, Jay R. Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Thu, Apr 03, 2008 at 08:22:58PM -0400, Steve Totaro wrote:
| Quote: | Look you two, you are both very valuable members of this community.
|
Well, I'm flattered, but you may give me too much credit. Nonetheless,
Bret's in my kill file, and I'm done with it.
Cheers,
- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com
Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274
Those who cast the vote decide nothing.
Those who count the vote decide everything.
-- (Joseph Stalin)
|
"What a difference a day makes".
I hope you reconsider your feelings after a cool down perios, as I
stated, non-verbal communication is really the core of communication.
Tone, gestures, posture, eye contact, facial expressions all missing
from an email list.....
Also consider moods, it's late, work pressure, family issues, money
issues, legal issues, car issues, who knows? While these should be
kept out of the realm of business, it is impossible to do so, we are
humans, we make mistakes, we act on emotions.
You two have always posted good reads to the list. No sense making
enemies over silly stuff, life is to short. It's not like he shot
your dog....
Thanks,
Steve Totaro
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pchammer at dynx.net
Guest
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 9:47 pm Post subject: [asterisk-biz] OT: Licensing preferences |
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|
Steve Totaro wrote:
*snipped
| Quote: | You two have always posted good reads to the list. No sense making
enemies over silly stuff, life is to short. It's not like he shot
your dog....
|
poor fluffy!
I agree with Steve on this one.. tomorrow is friday.. let small *....* go.
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tony at softins.clara....
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 5:01 am Post subject: [asterisk-biz] OT: Licensing preferences |
|
|
In article <1207266605.3522.183.camel@trixtop.0xdecafbad.com>,
Trixter aka Bret McDanel <trixter@0xdecafbad.com> wrote:
| Quote: |
On Thu, 2008-04-03 at 19:38 -0400, Jay R. Ashworth wrote:
| Quote: | where you continued to decline to answer in favor of handwaving.
|
Ok, it was about my opinion, why do you feel that you can demand an
explanation of my feelings on an off topic subject?
|
Bret,
I think what probably started to upset people was that you appeared to
be saying "There is a problem with RFC2833 DTMF in Asterisk; I have
written a patch that fixes the problem, BUT, I'm not going to let any
of you have it because I have something against the GPL."
There is a bit of an inconsistency here too. If you dislike the GPL
enough to decline on principle to contribute to GPL projects, you ought
also to refrain from making any use of GPL software others have written.
You can't have it both ways without being hypocritical.
Cheers
Tony
--
Tony Mountifield
Work: tony@softins.co.uk - http://www.softins.co.uk
Play: tony@mountifield.org - http://tony.mountifield.org
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