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Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 10:03 pm Post subject: [asterisk-users] Hardphone SIP phone costs

I'm trying to understand something that just doesn't seem to compute. How can companies like Cisco justify selling their hard phones for as much as they do? I know there is a matter of recouping R&D costs but when you look at the iPhone with all its amazing features for less than $500.00 it just doesn't make sense. Am I the only one that thinks this? Roy Anciso Director of Technology Manistee Intermediate School District 772 East Parkdale Avenue Manistee, MI 49660 Ph: 231-723-4264 Fx: 231-398-3036 roy at manistee.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.digium.com/pipermail/asterisk-users/attachments/20080318/11e1a93c/attachment.htm

mgraves at mstvp.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 10:29 pm Post subject: [asterisk-users] Hardphone SIP phone costs

--Original Message Text--- From: Anciso, Roy Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 23:03:52 -0400 Hardphone SIP phone costs Im trying to understand something that just doesnt seem to compute. How can companies like Cisco justify selling their hard phones for as much as they do? I know there is a matter of recouping R&D costs but when you look at the iPhone with all its amazing features for less than $500.00 it just doesnt make sense. Am I the only one that thinks this? Yep, Cisco phones cost a lot. Too much in my opinion. Do they work. Yes, they work well. But as long as I can get Polycom and Aastra phones that work as well or better why pay the Cisco premium? I once heard a rumour that the Cisco phones were actually made by Polycom for Cisco under contract. Not sure if that's true or not. Michael -- Michael Graves mgraves<at>mstvp.com http://blog.mgraves.org o713-861-4005 c713-201-1262 sip:mjgraves at pixelpower.onsip.com skype mjgraves 54245 at fwd.pulver.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.digium.com/pipermail/asterisk-users/attachments/20080318/18a0b9fc/attachment.htm

stotaro at totarotechn...
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:06 am Post subject: [asterisk-users] Hardphone SIP phone costs

On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 1:32 AM, John Faubion <jfaubion at tx.rr.com> wrote:

Quote:

when you look at the iPhone with all its amazing features for less than

$500.00 it just doesn't make sense. Am I the only one that thinks this?

Remember that the service providers such as AT&T, Cingular, Sprint, Verizon
and so forth, subsidize the cost of the phones because they make it up over
the course of the contract. Hence the reason that some phones that have an
initial cost when sold with a 1 year contract may be free initially with a 2
year contract. Even some VoIP phones and ATA's are done this way but only
through service providers. Take the subsidies away and that iPhone is pretty
pricey.

John

Cisco charges the premium because they can. The name alone commands
the premium price. If people were not buying, they would obviously
lower prices. I am sure their bean counters have computed the price
to sales ratio to an exact science.

It is called maximizing profits.

I also have a habit of noting computers and phones when when watching
TV. They have great product placement in many shows as does the Mac.
The Stargate series is one of the few shows where they use Dell
laptops. Product placement is a good way subtly put "Cisco" into your
head, the other is their massive advertising campaigns on CNN and
other business oriented channels.

I stick with Polycom and have no complaints.

Thanks,
Steve Totaro

drew at oanda.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:06 am Post subject: [asterisk-users] Hardphone SIP phone costs

Anciso, Roy wrote:

Quote:

I ? m trying to understand something that just doesn?t seem to
compute. How can companies like Cisco justify selling their hard
phones for as much as they do? I know there is a matter of recouping
R&D costs but when you look at the iPhone with all its amazing
features for less than $500.00 it just doesn ? t make sense. Am I the
only one that thinks this?

Hi Roy,

Although Cisco generally make good gear, it does tend to be
over-featured and over-priced. It's due to two main factors, branding
and lock-in.

Branding:- NoLogo by Naomi Klein is a good primer (regardless of which
side of the fence you sit), see also H. C. Andersen's "The Emperor's New
Clothes" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor's_New_Clothes

Lock-in:- If you've already bought into The Brand (eg Cisco's Call
Manager software) you don't have a choice if you want all the features.
You _could_ try telling the boss that the $100k+ that was spent on The
Brand was a waste of money, that it could have been done for $20k with a
mix of Brands, with more relevant features and that you're _sure_ the VP
would understand .... but then, no one got fired for buying IBM.
regards,

Drew

--
Drew Gibson

Systems Administrator
OANDA Corporation
www.oanda.com

Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:32 am Post subject: [asterisk-users] Hardphone SIP phone costs

I understand the maximizing pricing and branding aspect of phones but
when you look at feature set it just doesn't make sense. And as far as
purchasing the phone you can get it without a contract at the same
price.

When I starting thinking about it, can anyone else see a time when desk
phones are replaced by smart phones? Why would a company pay for work
cell phone and desk phone when one device could potentially do it all?

I know there are issues that need to be considered like safety (911) for
one. But can anyone else see where I'm coming from on this.
-----Original Message-----
From: asterisk-users-bounces at lists.digium.com
[mailto:asterisk-users-bounces at lists.digium.com] On Behalf Of Steve
Totaro
Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2008 6:07 AM
To: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial Discussion
Subject: Re: [asterisk-users] Hardphone SIP phone costs

On Wed, Mar 19, 2008 at 1:32 AM, John Faubion <jfaubion at tx.rr.com>
wrote:

Quote:

when you look at the iPhone with all its amazing features for less

than

Quote:

$500.00 it just doesn't make sense. Am I the only one that thinks

this?

Quote:

Remember that the service providers such as AT&T, Cingular, Sprint,

Verizon

Quote:

and so forth, subsidize the cost of the phones because they make it up

over

Quote:

the course of the contract. Hence the reason that some phones that

have an

Quote:

initial cost when sold with a 1 year contract may be free initially

with a 2

Quote:

year contract. Even some VoIP phones and ATA's are done this way but

only

Quote:

through service providers. Take the subsidies away and that iPhone is

pretty

Quote:

pricey.

John

g.stewart at horwits.c...
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:22 am Post subject: [asterisk-users] Hardphone SIP phone costs

On Wed, 19 Mar 2008 11:32:44 -0400, "Anciso, Roy" <roy at manistee.org> wrote:

Quote:

When I starting thinking about it, can anyone else see a time when desk
phones are replaced by smart phones? Why would a company pay for work
cell phone and desk phone when one device could potentially do it all?

Definitely.

I have a Nokia N95, which does precisely what you say. When I'm home (I
work from home) it's hooked up to my Asterisk setup over the WLAN. When I'm
out and about it's just a conventional cellphone.

Quote:

I know there are issues that need to be considered like safety (911) for
one. But can anyone else see where I'm coming from on this.

My VoIP provider doesn't "do" emergency calls either. Who cares? If the
need arises there are 3 cellphones and the land line here as well as the N95
on which I can place an emergency call.

--
Godwin Stewart - Horwich IT services

norman at myasd.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 12:29 pm Post subject: [asterisk-users] Hardphone SIP phone costs

On Mar 19, 2008, at 12:16 PM, asterisk-users-request at lists.digium.com
wrote:

Quote:

We use Polycom hard phones and Linksys ATAs (now owned by Cisco)
since both have good prices, good feature lists and are very
configurable. I couldn't see paying $500 for a Cisco phone when I can
get a Polycom 601 for $250 that does more than I really even need at.
Our old PBX phones were fairly pricey, as I recall.

As for why a company would purchase hard phones, several reasons.
First, we are replacing many hard phones with computers. We have a
custom application and have been moving folks main numbers to use the
computer. We can make it "ring" externally and then they just put
their headset on and hit an fkey to answer.

The reason to not use a cell, in addition to potentially delaying an
emergency response, is reliability. In any kind of emergency, they
just don't work. And coverage and dropped calls are a problem,
especially in office buildings.

However, professionalism is, IMHO, the main reason. Cell phones sound
terrible, generally have a huge delay (often with a related echo),
they fade in and out, etc. I actively don't deal with companies where
their sales people are on cell phones, and I have indeed actually to
go with other vendors based on this. If you can't be professional
enough to have an office with a real phone, why would I want to trust
you''ll support anything you sell?

In the grand scheme of things, phone are cheap. With SIP phones,
employees can move their phone to another office if they move and
just plug it in. Companies can also better monitor employees.

Norman Franke
Answering Service for Directors, Inc.
www.myasd.com

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gordon+asterisk at dro...
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 12:54 pm Post subject: [asterisk-users] Hardphone SIP phone costs

On Wed, 19 Mar 2008, Norman Franke wrote:

Quote:

As for why a company would purchase hard phones, several reasons. First, we
are replacing many hard phones with computers. We have a custom application
and have been moving folks main numbers to use the computer. We can make it
"ring" externally and then they just put their headset on and hit an fkey to
answer.

The reason to not use a cell, in addition to potentially delaying an
emergency response, is reliability. In any kind of emergency, they just don't
work. And coverage and dropped calls are a problem, especially in office
buildings.

However, professionalism is, IMHO, the main reason. Cell phones sound
terrible, generally have a huge delay (often with a related echo), they fade
in and out, etc. I actively don't deal with companies where their sales
people are on cell phones, and I have indeed actually to go with other
vendors based on this. If you can't be professional enough to have an office
with a real phone, why would I want to trust you''ll support anything you
sell?

My mobile does not sound terrible, does not have echo, does not fade in or
out, and the last time I used it to call the emergency services, I got
through straight away. I've not had a dropped call for a long time either
(going through tunnels on the train, or over Dartmoor excepted)

Sounds like your country doesn't have a very good mobile phone
infrastructure, or operators that don't care.

Quote:

In the grand scheme of things, phone are cheap. With SIP phones, employees
can move their phone to another office if they move and just plug it in.
Companies can also better monitor employees.

My mobile phone supports SIP (via WiFi) 3G and GSM... So I can move about
and have coverage via a variety of means, but GSM "just works" in the UK,
and when it doesn't work - well, I'm usually in a place where I don't want
to make phone calls anyway Smile

It's not perfect and I'm still after the holy grail of the "one device"
that will work anywhere, but it's getting there..

Gordon

norman at myasd.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:38 pm Post subject: [asterisk-users] Hardphone SIP phone costs

On Mar 19, 2008, at 2:48 PM, asterisk-users-request at lists.digium.com
wrote:

Quote:

My mobile does not sound terrible, does not have echo, does not
fade in or
out, and the last time I used it to call the emergency services, I got
through straight away. I've not had a dropped call for a long time
either
(going through tunnels on the train, or over Dartmoor excepted)

I've never heard a cell phone on the other end that I couldn't tell
was a cell phone, even on a good day. They compress the audio so much
it's rather obvious. That may vary by carrier, AT&T and Verizon being
the largest in the US are both pretty awful. A fun test is to call a
landline from your cell in the same room and note now long the delay
is. I find it long enough to interfere with conversations, people
talking over each other (especially when both are on cells from
different carriers.)

None of the carriers really offer a phone that can do SIP, as far as
I've seen. As soon as the iPhone software 2.0 is out, there will be
one for that.

Norman Franke
Answering Service for Directors, Inc.
www.myasd.com

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sip at arcdiv.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 5:37 am Post subject: [asterisk-users] Hardphone SIP phone costs

Gordon Henderson wrote:

Quote:

On Wed, 19 Mar 2008, Norman Franke wrote:

Quote:

In the grand scheme of things, phone are cheap. With SIP phones, employees
can move their phone to another office if they move and just plug it in.
Companies can also better monitor employees.

It's not perfect and I'm still after the holy grail of the "one device"
that will work anywhere, but it's getting there..

Gordon

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Two of the four floors of the building in which I work are underground.
Using cell phones as office phones has NEVER been a good idea. However,
DECT phones just work. And well.

We have cell repeaters installed inside the building, but the shielding
in the walls limits their effectiveness in many areas (datacenter,
conference rooms, etc). But again... no issues with the DECT phones.

I don't think landlines will go away anytime soon simply for the very
reason that mobile phones CAN'T be ubiquitous unless you have a tower or
repeater anywhere where there's interference/low signal, etc.

At our mountain cabin, we have a DSL line and VoIP is grand. But we'd
have to drive six miles to get to the nearest spot with mobile coverage.
I could never do any work from there if I relied on the mobile as my
'one true phone.' This isn't to say there's not a day when it will be
better. But right now, it's patchwork at best.

gordon+asterisk at dro...
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:43 am Post subject: [asterisk-users] Hardphone SIP phone costs

On Wed, 19 Mar 2008, Norman Franke wrote:

Quote:

On Mar 19, 2008, at 2:48 PM, asterisk-users-request at lists.digium.com wrote:

Quote:

I've never heard a cell phone on the other end that I couldn't tell was a
cell phone, even on a good day.

Over here it's GSM. nothing more nothing less. Yes, it's noticable, but
it's not terrible and it is consistent. I'm not aware of the networks
imposing more compression on top of what the handset itself does.

Quote:

They compress the audio so much it's rather
obvious. That may vary by carrier, AT&T and Verizon being the largest in the
US are both pretty awful.

I'm getting the impression that the telcos in the US are basically
shafting you because of the monopoly they have. More intersted in keeping
themselves happy than their customers. I think it's nice I have a choice
of 5 major mobile phone carriers in the UK, and well over 100 ISPs for
broadband via the BT Wholesale network.

Quote:

A fun test is to call a landline from your cell in the same room and
note now long the delay is. I find it long enough to interfere with
conversations, people talking over each other (especially when both are
on cells from different carriers.)

There is a delay - but I've never really noticed it unless I play tricks
on the network like that. It's certianly nothing like making a call to
Austrailia!

Quote:

None of the carriers really offer a phone that can do SIP, as far as I've
seen. As soon as the iPhone software 2.0 is out, there will be one for that.

Don't rely on the carriers to provide you anything - there are plenty of
phones on the market which do SIP now - most modern Nokias do. I use an
E90 Communicator, but the E95 is popular too, so I'm experimenting with
using my mobile as my "one" phone, via Wi-Fi/SIP when I'm in the
home/office and GSM/3G when out and about. It's not perfect yet, but
getting there.

(And 10:1 gives you a SIP service on the iPhone that's locked into their
own service Wink

Cheers,

Gordon

jfaubion at tx.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 9:31 am Post subject: [asterisk-users] Hardphone SIP phone costs

Quote:

are plenty of phones on the market which do SIP now - most
modern Nokias do. I use an E90 Communicator, but the E95 is
popular too, so I'm experimenting with using my mobile as my
"one" phone, via Wi-Fi/SIP when I'm in the home/office and

Out of curiosity, how do these phones handle the transition from Wi-Fi to
GSM? Is it seamless? Can the transition occur when on a call?

Thanks,
John

dhartman at djhsolutio...
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 9:52 am Post subject: [asterisk-users] Hardphone SIP phone costs

John Faubion wrote:

Quote:

Out of curiosity, how do these phones handle the transition from Wi-Fi to
GSM? Is it seamless? Can the transition occur when on a call?

Not seamless unless the cell phone provider offers such a service. You
won't find that available in the US. So even though it's one phone,
you'd have 2 numbers. Cell phone providers have no incentive to offer
such a hand-off because they wouldn't make any money on the calls after
they are handed over to the voip system.

Darrick
--
Darrick Hartman
DJH Solutions, LLC
http://www.djhsolutions.com
http://www.djhsolutions.com/wiki

gordon+asterisk at dro...
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 10:23 am Post subject: [asterisk-users] Hardphone SIP phone costs

On Fri, 21 Mar 2008, John Faubion wrote:

Quote:

Out of curiosity, how do these phones handle the transition from Wi-Fi to
GSM? Is it seamless? Can the transition occur when on a call?

The ones I've used don't. You make/take a SIP call or a GSM call, but the
2 don't mix. I can live with that - for now. I have my Nokia set to
default to making a SIP call, but it falls-back to using the network when
that fails. (eg. when I go out of range). It goes back to WiFi mode when
it comes into range of an access point it knows about and I've got Wi-Fi
search on.

I think there's still some resistance from the (UK) mobile telcos about
SIP/VoIP on the phones as it's a competing technology, so there were
reports of early phones being "crippled" by the network operators, but
there's never been anything to stop you buying an un-branded phone and
putting your own SIM card in. I think the operators are giving in
though.... Some even offer free Skype software on the phones and calls
(but not Skype out!)

Femto cells might be the next best thing though as I'm really not a fan of
VoIP over Wi-Fi. I'd want one with an Ethernet port and multiple SIP
accounts, so my mobile could roam to my home/office cell and the cell
could then either contact my mobile telco, or my VoIP provider, as
required/desired.

Something like this maybe:
http://www.3g.co.uk/PR/Feb2007/4221.htm

but a bit more "open" to let you use your own SIP service rather than the
mobile telcos..

Gordon

oza-4h07 at myamail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 11:27 am Post subject: [asterisk-users] Hardphone SIP phone costs

2008/3/21, Darrick Hartman (lists) <dhartman at djhsolutions.com>:

Quote:

John Faubion wrote:

Quote:

Out of curiosity, how do these phones handle the transition from Wi-Fi

Quote:

GSM? Is it seamless? Can the transition occur when on a call?

Not seamless unless the cell phone provider offers such a service.

If you're on call using GSM band, it is seamless.

If you're on call using SIP/WiFi, it's up to SIP server to dial a new call
to your mobile number and blind transfert previous call to it.
Maybe some dual band phones are able to automatically accept some incoming
GSM calls, put them in 3-way conference (of some kind) and wait for SIP
server to end WiFi call without asking anything to user.
Parts of this puzzle are here but integration should be rather hard.

You

Quote:

won't find that available in the US. So even though it's one phone,
you'd have 2 numbers. Cell phone providers have no incentive to offer
such a hand-off because they wouldn't make any money on the calls after
they are handed over to the voip system.

Darrick

--
Darrick Hartman
DJH Solutions, LLC
http://www.djhsolutions.com
http://www.djhsolutions.com/wiki

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