VoIP Mailing List Archives
Mailing list archives for the VoIP community |
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
jra at baylink.com
Guest
|
 Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 10:58 am Post subject: [asterisk-users] World Cheapest Predictive Dialer! |
 |
|
On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 07:55:14AM -0400, Dean Collins wrote:
| Quote: | Yep it's funny how few people on this list realize that the usa's
borders and laws stop 50 miles off the coast.
It's also surprising how few Americans realize that a company
incorporated internationally (Pakistan in this instance) even if owned
as a subsidiary of a USA parent doesn't have to follow the laws of the
USA but actually falls under the jurisdiction of the laws they are
incorporated under.
|
I don't see that it's pertinent. FTC *owns* that list of numbers, and
they can put whatever restrictions on it they like; I would assume that
the restriction is contractual, not statutory.
Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra at baylink.com
Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274
Those who cast the vote decide nothing.
Those who count the vote decide everything.
-- (Joseph Stalin) |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
jra at baylink.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 11:00 am Post subject: [asterisk-users] World Cheapest Predictive Dialer! |
|
|
On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 09:42:13AM -0400, Steve Totaro wrote:
| Quote: | It is similar to forming a corporation that owns your house and
generates revenue from you paying "rent" (mortgage) payments. It is
obviously a wash but your house is protected from any claims against
you personally since it is owned by a total legally separate corporate
entity.
|
Yup.
But it'll cost you: at least in Florida, if a corporation owns your
home, you don't get the $25,000 homestead exemption on your property
taxes...
Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra at baylink.com
Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274
Those who cast the vote decide nothing.
Those who count the vote decide everything.
-- (Joseph Stalin) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
stotaro at totarotechn...
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 11:05 am Post subject: [asterisk-users] World Cheapest Predictive Dialer! |
|
|
On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 12:00 PM, Jay R. Ashworth <jra at baylink.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 09:42:13AM -0400, Steve Totaro wrote:
| Quote: | It is similar to forming a corporation that owns your house and
generates revenue from you paying "rent" (mortgage) payments. It is
obviously a wash but your house is protected from any claims against
you personally since it is owned by a total legally separate corporate
entity.
|
Yup.
But it'll cost you: at least in Florida, if a corporation owns your
home, you don't get the $25,000 homestead exemption on your property
taxes...
Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra at baylink.com
Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274
Those who cast the vote decide nothing.
Those who count the vote decide everything.
-- (Joseph Stalin)
|
People can't even sell their property in most of FLA. $6,000
insurance (if you can get it) a year in Boca for a town house. Nobody
is buying unless it is one of those "We Buy Houses" guys. Now they
are the real scumbags.
Thanks,
Steve T |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jra at baylink.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 11:06 am Post subject: [asterisk-users] World Cheapest Predictive Dialer! |
|
|
On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 11:39:46AM -0400, Steve Totaro wrote:
[ Alex: ]
| Quote: | | Quote: | I'm quite certain this is already obvious and will simply be interpreted
as a tautological affirmation of the obvious, but such co-mingling of
personal and business assets -- whether with an evidently fraudalent
purpose or not as such -- will generally not survive the "test of
reasonableness" that must be satisfied for corporate liability to not be
pierced.
In other words, if you simply pay for your house in this manner, and
then you declare bankruptcy or are sued by creditors or whatever, the
courts will scavenge this sort of thing up as evidence that your
corporate entity is a financial alter-ego to whatever degree, and
declare that your house is actually, de facto, a personal asset and can
be included in the asset classes potentially awarded by judgments to the
plaintiffs.
|
It is a legitimate real estate company renting you a place to live.
This asset protection tactic has been around for a very long time and
is legit. Totally separate entities.
|
Happens in the commercial world all the time; it's a common way to "get
cash out of the corporation" -- a business's building is owned by the
corporation's owners, and rented to the corporation.
Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra at baylink.com
Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274
Those who cast the vote decide nothing.
Those who count the vote decide everything.
-- (Joseph Stalin) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Alex.Lopez at OpSys.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 11:38 am Post subject: [asterisk-users] World Cheapest Predictive Dialer! |
|
|
| Quote: |
Yup.
But it'll cost you: at least in Florida, if a corporation owns your
home, you don't get the $25,000 homestead exemption on your property
taxes...
|
Don't forget that you aren't protected by the 3% limit on property
values, doesn't matter much now, but it did when the house across the
street sold for 2.5 times what yours cost.
Steve, Insurance is just one of the problems, try paying 12,000 a year
in property taxes for services that cost 1,000 anywhere else in the
country. We talk about DNC, FTC, and others, the real crooks are
already here, and we supposedly ELECTED them!!!!!
Alex
| Quote: | Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth Baylink
jra at baylink.com
Designer The Things I Think
|
RFC
'87
647
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mark.h at cage151.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 11:47 am Post subject: [asterisk-users] World Cheapest Predictive Dialer! |
|
|
Hi Dean,
Could you please tell me the source of information for your 2nd paragraph?
I'd like to read up more.
Thanks.
-----Original Message-----
From: asterisk-users-bounces at lists.digium.com
[mailto:asterisk-users-bounces at lists.digium.com] On Behalf Of Dean Collins
Sent: June 13, 2008 7:55 AM
To: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial Discussion
Subject: Re: [asterisk-users] World Cheapest Predictive Dialer!
Yep it's funny how few people on this list realize that the usa's
borders and laws stop 50 miles off the coast.
It's also surprising how few Americans realize that a company
incorporated internationally (Pakistan in this instance) even if owned
as a subsidiary of a USA parent doesn't have to follow the laws of the
USA but actually falls under the jurisdiction of the laws they are
incorporated under.
I'm not saying this is good or bad, 'm just saying that as 'asterisk'
people we should be smart enough to play the laws that suit us to our
advantage, if you think that the Global 1000 companies don't then you
are kidding yourself.
Besides we have the advantage in that almost everything we do can be
virtual in most instances.
Cheers,
Dean
-----Original Message-----
From: asterisk-users-bounces at lists.digium.com
[mailto:asterisk-users-bounces at lists.digium.com] On Behalf Of Steve
Totaro
Sent: Friday, 13 June 2008 7:06 AM
To: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial Discussion
Subject: Re: [asterisk-users] World Cheapest Predictive Dialer!
My guess is that they are outside of the FTC's jurisdiction.....
Thanks,
Steve T
On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 6:15 AM, Matt Florell <astmattf at gmail.com>
wrote:
_______________________________________________
-- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com --
asterisk-users mailing list
To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit:
http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Alex.Lopez at OpSys.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 11:56 am Post subject: [asterisk-users] World Cheapest Predictive Dialer! |
|
|
Snip
| Quote: |
wrote:
| Quote: | If that is the way you NEED to set things up then you are obviously
|
|
a
| Quote: | | Quote: | scumbag. (No referances to anyone on this list). If you start off
|
|
with
| Quote: | | Quote: | so many layers of shells, you obviously don't care what anyone
|
|
thinks of
| Quote: | | Quote: | you or your 'affiliated' companies.
|
I am just telling you how the big boys play. Like it or not.
|
I am going back to my sandbox!!
| Quote: |
| Quote: |
The laws were made to be pretty simple to follow, the lists can be
|
|
SNIP
| Quote: | | Quote: | better to follow the rules that are more strict.
|
Then why did you break the law by tampering with the municipality's
electric meter. Had he needed power for some sort of emergency, you
could very well be held responsible in court. Whether involuntary
manslaughter or something less.
|
All of the Life Safety Equipment was operational, it is powered by the
building. He even had hot water and phone. Elevators, Fire Equipment,
and hall lights are usually backed up via generator (at least here in
Florida) That night we told him that there was a building power outage,
We all turned off our lights and went to sleep. We delt with him in the
morning when he found out he was the only one out..
| Quote: | | Quote: |
I lived for 4 years in a building where the Colombian Ambassador
|
|
lived,
| Quote: | | Quote: | he lived right above me, every Wednesday night starting at 11:00PM,
|
|
he
SNIP
| Quote: | | Quote: | US power meter, and having him stay in the dark until the power
|
|
company
| Quote: | | Quote: | could come the next morning, he learned to get along with others.
|
See above, you are the one breaking the law. Using corporations for
protection is why they were created. This is why the big boys use
these laws to protect themselves and their assets, all legal like.
|
There is always a fine line between Moraly right and Legally Right.
I admit it when I pulled the meter, I was upset, it had been about 4
weeks of the same thing, we (Building Security and management, Police,
Neighbors, and myself) tried to the best of our ability to resolve the
problem. All we wanted was for a little respect for others. He felt he
didn't need to comply. I have moved on, bought a single family house
and I am much better off. Last I heard the Ambassador was sent back
home.
| Quote: | | Quote: |
This will happen to the Off-shore call centers that do not follow
|
|
the
| Quote: | | Quote: | rules, they will simply be forced to comply.
|
By whom? The "World Police"?
|
The Consumer, nothing says change your ways more than no sales....
| Quote: | | Quote: |
It is not that hard to get a Valid DID from your ITSP that you can
|
|
use
| Quote: | | Quote: | to identify your outgoing calls, you can track call backs, both good
|
|
and
| Quote: | | Quote: | bad, Have it go to a VM box and allow someone to leave a message. If
they are interested in being a customer, you gave them a way to
|
|
reach
| Quote: | | Quote: | you, if they are upset because you called, take them off your list.
|
|
It
| Quote: | | Quote: | is easy, use technology to save your workforce from un-needed work.
|
OK.
Thanks,
Steve T
|
SNIP |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tzafrir.cohen at xorco...
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 12:54 pm Post subject: [asterisk-users] World Cheapest Predictive Dialer! |
|
|
On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 07:55:14AM -0400, Dean Collins wrote:
| Quote: | Yep it's funny how few people on this list realize that the usa's
borders and laws stop 50 miles off the coast.
|
Another funny thing is how Internet infrastructure in the US is way
cheaper than infrastructure in, say, Pakistan. That makes some companies
use American providers such as Google and Microsoft for email and
messaging. And host their web site in the US.
| Quote: |
It's also surprising how few Americans realize that a company
incorporated internationally (Pakistan in this instance) even if owned
as a subsidiary of a USA parent doesn't have to follow the laws of the
USA but actually falls under the jurisdiction of the laws they are
incorporated under.
|
It would become ironic rather than funny, if the company in question
would think that it can do business with US companies on US
infrastructure and yet annoy so many people in the US.
--
Tzafrir Cohen
icq#16849755 jabber:tzafrir.cohen at xorcom.com
+972-50-7952406 mailto:tzafrir.cohen at xorcom.com
http://www.xorcom.com iax:guest at local.xorcom.com/tzafrir |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mark.h at cage151.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 1:26 pm Post subject: [asterisk-users] World Cheapest Predictive Dialer! |
|
|
I'm certainly learning a lot from this thread, especially from Steve Totaro.
If only this was OT, I'd love to see a big fat discussion go on regarding
this.
-----Original Message-----
From: asterisk-users-bounces at lists.digium.com
[mailto:asterisk-users-bounces at lists.digium.com] On Behalf Of Steve Totaro
Sent: June 13, 2008 9:42 AM
To: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial Discussion
Subject: Re: [asterisk-users] World Cheapest Predictive Dialer!
That can be avoided by simply distancing yourself through various
corporate shell games. That's how the big boys do it.
A good corporate lawyer can advise how to do this, but basically you
setup a corporation that has no real assets that does business with
the overseas company directly. Then you setup another totally
separate corporation that uses the first corporation strictly as a
"vendor".
Let them fine and and subsequently bankrupt the first corporation,
with no assets, it is hard to get blood from a stone.
Then the second corporation just needs to find a new "vendor".
It is similar to forming a corporation that owns your house and
generates revenue from you paying "rent" (mortgage) payments. It is
obviously a wash but your house is protected from any claims against
you personally since it is owned by a total legally separate corporate
entity.
Thanks,
Steve T
On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 9:23 AM, Matt Florell <astmattf at gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | You are correct, a company that is outside of the USA does not fall
under the laws of the USA. I said that myself.
I also said that a company that is INSIDE of the USA or has operations
INSIDE of the USA is subject to the laws of the USA.
This includes companies that are based in the USA that use lead
generation company that are outside of the USA. The company that is
doing lead generation outside of the USA will not get shut down.
The company that they are doing lead generation for INSIDE of the USA
can get shut down for the activities of the company OUTSIDE of the USA
because they are acting on their behalf.
This can still be a problem for the non-USA company because they might
not get paid for their lead generation activities if the USA-based
client of theirs is shut down.
There are many instances of this happening. A recent one was last year
where a company called Ameriquest was fined $1 million for violation
of the DNC through it's affiliates, some of which were off-shore lead
generation companies. The company shut down because of this fine.
MATT---
On 6/13/08, Dean Collins <Dean at cognation.net> wrote:
| Quote: |
| Quote: | "A large portion of these companies are doing lead-generation for
USA-based companies, and over the years a lot of those USA-based
companies have been shut down for the activities of their lead
suppliers.
|
Source please? I'm calling bullshit.
If an incroporated entitiy outside of the USA makes international calls
into the USA they do not fall under this law regardless of the purpose
of the calls.
Cheers,
Dean
_______________________________________________
-- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com --
asterisk-users mailing list
To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit:
http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
|
_______________________________________________
-- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com --
asterisk-users mailing list
To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit:
http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
|
_______________________________________________
-- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com --
asterisk-users mailing list
To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit:
http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dean at cognation.net
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 1:37 pm Post subject: [asterisk-users] World Cheapest Predictive Dialer! |
|
|
-----Original Message-----
From: asterisk-users-bounces at lists.digium.com
[mailto:asterisk-users-bounces at lists.digium.com] On Behalf Of Tzafrir
Cohen
Sent: Friday, 13 June 2008 1:54 PM
To: asterisk-users at lists.digium.com
Subject: Re: [asterisk-users] World Cheapest Predictive Dialer!
On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 07:55:14AM -0400, Dean Collins wrote:
| Quote: | Yep it's funny how few people on this list realize that the usa's
borders and laws stop 50 miles off the coast.
|
Another funny thing is how Internet infrastructure in the US is way
cheaper than infrastructure in, say, Pakistan. That makes some companies
use American providers such as Google and Microsoft for email and
messaging. And host their web site in the US.
| Quote: |
It's also surprising how few Americans realize that a company
incorporated internationally (Pakistan in this instance) even if owned
as a subsidiary of a USA parent doesn't have to follow the laws of the
USA but actually falls under the jurisdiction of the laws they are
incorporated under.
|
It would become ironic rather than funny, if the company in question
would think that it can do business with US companies on US
infrastructure and yet annoy so many people in the US.
No it's called playing by the rules of the game set by politicians and
corporate leaders who set them.
Just because you are a peon like me doesn't mean you cant play smarter
than others.
As way of example - check out this article;
http://www.wired.com/techbiz/people/magazine/16-06/mf_hiroyuki?currentPa
ge=1
I do love people who knows how to play the international hosting
game.....it's an aspect sorely lacking in most USA based web 2.0 people
I've met.
Cheers,
Dean |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tzafrir.cohen at xorco...
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 4:06 pm Post subject: [asterisk-users] World Cheapest Predictive Dialer! |
|
|
On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 02:37:52PM -0400, Dean Collins wrote:
| Quote: | No it's called playing by the rules of the game set by politicians and
corporate leaders who set them.
|
The same politicials who set those nasty anti-spam laws?
--
Tzafrir Cohen
icq#16849755 jabber:tzafrir.cohen at xorcom.com
+972-50-7952406 mailto:tzafrir.cohen at xorcom.com
http://www.xorcom.com iax:guest at local.xorcom.com/tzafrir |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mzulqarnain2002 at yah...
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 11:07 pm Post subject: [asterisk-users] World Cheapest Predictive Dialer! |
|
|
Hi!
First of all I apologize for posting this commercial email on asterisk-user list but it gave me some valuable information which were not notified by any one on asterisk-buzz list.
Second I would like to clear the confusion created by my email about FREE DNC Scrubbing.
Our Predictive Dialer have capability to filter list of number against the List of National Do Not Call Registry provided by the client itself. So they don't have to buy any additional software from market, like dnclistmanager, Scrub DNC etc. for scrubbing their list before dialing their leads. In this way let me know if even we from developing country like Pakistan are violating US or FTC laws.
Some one asked in the list that how It is world most cheapest predictive dialer. We don't pay to people for using our software. TeleRep Performance Optimizer is not a free predictive dialer but the most cheapest Predictive Dialer (just 0.014c per minute, as you use your own carrier to terminate call anywhere in the world, but not only to USA) as compare to other Hosted Dialer available in the market like Callfire and many others available.
However, discussion made by several friends including Steve, MATT, Dean are very valuable and I thanks all of you for taking your time on discussing this matter on list.
I am looking forward further for your feedback on this matter if still it is out of law.
Thanks
Regards,
Zulqarnain
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.digium.com/pipermail/asterisk-users/attachments/20080613/ae3aeb1f/attachment.htm |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tilghman at mail.jeffa...
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 11:26 pm Post subject: [asterisk-users] World Cheapest Predictive Dialer! |
|
|
On Friday 13 June 2008 23:07:17 Muhammad Zulqarnain wrote:
| Quote: | Some one asked in the list that how It is world most cheapest predictive
dialer. We don't pay to people for using our software. TeleRep Performance
Optimizer is not a free predictive dialer but the most cheapest Predictive
Dialer (just 0.014c per minute, as you use your own carrier to terminate
call anywhere in the world, but not only to USA) as compare to other Hosted
Dialer available in the market like Callfire and many others available.
|
Clearly, you missed the point. Since there is a FREE predictive dialer out
there, and your product costs something, you are not the world's cheapest
predictive dialer. The only way you could possibly be cheaper than free is if
you paid people to use your product. Not a particularly wise business plan,
but then, what do I know?
--
Tilghman |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
abalashov at evaristes...
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 9:33 am Post subject: [asterisk-users] World Cheapest Predictive Dialer! |
|
|
Steve Totaro wrote:
| Quote: | It is a legitimate real estate company renting you a place to live.
This asset protection tactic has been around for a very long time and
is legit. Totally separate entities.
|
Well, certainly, and some of the time this asset protection tactic works
-- somewhat, but not exclusively covariantly with the degree to which
the real estate company is truly legitimate (i.e. operates in that
business), and not just an obvious asset shell.
However, as with all shell games and formal gimmicks, they sometimes
don't work. If it can be shown that the other company's basis of
existence lies materially in securing your assets and little more, the
assets it is meant to protect can lose their shielding.
If I own a big house and a nice yacht and various other accoutrements of
high executive life and move them into an asset shell company and then
bankrupt my primary company, or the company becomes liable for damages
(due, in substance, to my actions) that cannot be collected without
liquidating it, and the financial picture is bleak, people are getting
laid off, foreclosures and garnishments and liens are being opened, and
the court finds that I'm sitting on an enourmous pile of lavish personal
assets owned by another company for the explicitly identifiable purpose
of insulating them from the consequences of the aforementioned
situation, there is the very real risk that they court will expose those
assets to liquidation as well. It can and does happen.
--
Alex Balashov
Evariste Systems
Web : http://www.evaristesys.com/
Tel : (+1) (678) 954-0670
Direct : (+1) (678) 954-0671
Mobile : (+1) (706) 338-8599 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
shmaltz at gmail.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 10:13 pm Post subject: [asterisk-users] World Cheapest Predictive Dialer! |
|
|
On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 12:06 PM, Jay R. Ashworth <jra at baylink.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 11:39:46AM -0400, Steve Totaro wrote:
[ Alex: ]
| Quote: | | Quote: | I'm quite certain this is already obvious and will simply be interpreted
as a tautological affirmation of the obvious, but such co-mingling of
personal and business assets -- whether with an evidently fraudalent
purpose or not as such -- will generally not survive the "test of
reasonableness" that must be satisfied for corporate liability to not be
pierced.
In other words, if you simply pay for your house in this manner, and
then you declare bankruptcy or are sued by creditors or whatever, the
courts will scavenge this sort of thing up as evidence that your
corporate entity is a financial alter-ego to whatever degree, and
declare that your house is actually, de facto, a personal asset and can
be included in the asset classes potentially awarded by judgments to the
plaintiffs.
|
It is a legitimate real estate company renting you a place to live.
This asset protection tactic has been around for a very long time and
is legit. Totally separate entities.
|
Happens in the commercial world all the time; it's a common way to "get
cash out of the corporation" -- a business's building is owned by the
corporation's owners, and rented to the corporation.
|
This is actually illegal in some states and considered a breach of
Fiduciary everywhere.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
Search
