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msc at freeswitch.org
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 Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:23 pm Post subject: [Freeswitch-users] mod_g729 |
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On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 3:48 PM, Kristian Kielhofner
<kristian.kielhofner@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 6:35 PM, Michael S Collins <msc@freeswitch.org> wrote:
| Quote: |
On Jan 22, 2009, at 3:15 PM, Brian West <brian@freeswitch.org> wrote:
| Quote: | Not really what I would call a break... but at some point in the $1.6
million range you stop paying.
/b
|
Like I said, OSS FTW baby!
-MC
|
Quite the contrary.
If Speex means you require faster, more capable DSPs, you are going to
continue paying for them per unit. At $1.6mil you stop paying for
G.729 licenses (basically a fixed cost at that point, regardless of
volume or quantity).
I'm sure most of the big guys paying for G.729 have no problem with that.
I love OSS and Speex as much as any of us; I'm just trying to play
devil's advocate and attempt to explain some of the strategy from
those continuing to pay for G.729...
|
You're a good devil! 
I still have to wonder if g.729 is measurably "better" than Speex or
any other 8kHz CELP-based codec. What is that measurement? That's how
you can tell if it's "worth it" or not. As for me, I'd rather not get
locked in. Patent encumbrances are nasty and I prefer to avoid them
where possible. I think bigger businesses are starting to wise up to
that fact as well. I think Polycom's model is going to catch on:
codecs are "basically free" but are not open source. Not my favorite
option but if I get a license to use the codec in perpetuity then I'm
feeling pretty good.
-MC
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brian at freeswitch.org
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:33 pm Post subject: [Freeswitch-users] mod_g729 |
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makes me laugh... everyone else is racing to stay on 8k... I'm running
in the other direction! : )
16k, 32k and 48k voip... much better.
/b
On Jan 22, 2009, at 6:30 PM, Steve Underwood wrote:
| Quote: | Depends what you are after. Speex offers the quality of G.729 at
around
the same processing load. However, nobody seems to want to pay for the
processing load of G.729. Almost everything uses G.729A. Half the
processing load, but significantly poorer quality.
VoIP is mostly a race to the bottom, and people wonder why it makes no
money for provides. :-\
Regards,
Steve
|
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steveu at coppice.org
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:37 pm Post subject: [Freeswitch-users] mod_g729 |
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Kristian Kielhofner wrote:
| Quote: | On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 6:35 PM, Michael S Collins <msc@freeswitch.org> wrote:
| Quote: | On Jan 22, 2009, at 3:15 PM, Brian West <brian@freeswitch.org> wrote:
| Quote: | Not really what I would call a break... but at some point in the $1.6
million range you stop paying.
/b
|
Like I said, OSS FTW baby!
-MC
|
Quite the contrary.
If Speex means you require faster, more capable DSPs, you are going to
continue paying for them per unit. At $1.6mil you stop paying for
G.729 licenses (basically a fixed cost at that point, regardless of
volume or quantity).
I'm sure most of the big guys paying for G.729 have no problem with that.
I love OSS and Speex as much as any of us; I'm just trying to play
devil's advocate and attempt to explain some of the strategy from
those continuing to pay for G.729...
|
Depends what you are after. Speex offers the quality of G.729 at around
the same processing load. However, nobody seems to want to pay for the
processing load of G.729. Almost everything uses G.729A. Half the
processing load, but significantly poorer quality.
VoIP is mostly a race to the bottom, and people wonder why it makes no
money for provides. :-\
Regards,
Steve
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steveu at coppice.org
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:38 pm Post subject: [Freeswitch-users] mod_g729 |
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Michael S Collins wrote:
| Quote: | That delta shrinks as processing power gets cheaper. I wonder if g729
licenses will get cheaper over time as well? I wouldn't take that
bet.
|
Economics 101: The pricing of the licences is directly related to
G.729's lock on the market. The only reason for the prices to come down
is if G.729A loses its grip on the IP phone market.
Regards,
Steve
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msc at freeswitch.org
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:40 pm Post subject: [Freeswitch-users] mod_g729 |
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On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 4:33 PM, Steve Underwood <steveu@coppice.org> wrote:
| Quote: | Michael S Collins wrote:
| Quote: | That delta shrinks as processing power gets cheaper. I wonder if g729
licenses will get cheaper over time as well? I wouldn't take that
bet.
|
Economics 101: The pricing of the licences is directly related to
G.729's lock on the market. The only reason for the prices to come down
is if G.729A loses its grip on the IP phone market.
|
In other words they only get cheaper if all of us band together and
don't use them? That works for me!
-MC
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msc at freeswitch.org
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:40 pm Post subject: [Freeswitch-users] mod_g729 |
|
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On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 4:30 PM, Steve Underwood <steveu@coppice.org> wrote:
| Quote: | Kristian Kielhofner wrote:
| Quote: | On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 6:35 PM, Michael S Collins <msc@freeswitch.org> wrote:
| Quote: | On Jan 22, 2009, at 3:15 PM, Brian West <brian@freeswitch.org> wrote:
| Quote: | Not really what I would call a break... but at some point in the $1.6
million range you stop paying.
/b
|
Like I said, OSS FTW baby!
-MC
|
Quite the contrary.
If Speex means you require faster, more capable DSPs, you are going to
continue paying for them per unit. At $1.6mil you stop paying for
G.729 licenses (basically a fixed cost at that point, regardless of
volume or quantity).
I'm sure most of the big guys paying for G.729 have no problem with that.
I love OSS and Speex as much as any of us; I'm just trying to play
devil's advocate and attempt to explain some of the strategy from
those continuing to pay for G.729...
|
Depends what you are after. Speex offers the quality of G.729 at around
the same processing load. However, nobody seems to want to pay for the
processing load of G.729. Almost everything uses G.729A. Half the
processing load, but significantly poorer quality.
VoIP is mostly a race to the bottom, and people wonder why it makes no
money for provides. :-\
|
Amen! A voice of reason. "Let's use a really, REALLY low-quality
codec to save bandwidth and then make it so the tech support calls
from the US go to places where the agents don't really speak English.
That way it will be both hard to hear and difficult to understand.
That'll save BOATLOADS of money!" Uh yeah. First off, Americans can
barely speak English. Secondly, if you make it difficult for people to
hear and/or understand each other then all that money you're saving
with smaller bandwidth will go to things like higher telecom costs
(longer phone calls) and higher payroll costs to cover the additional
personnel needed by these call centers.
As usual, thank you Steve for an enlightened viewpoint that makes
others think about the big picture.
-MC
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kristian.kielhofner at...
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:58 pm Post subject: [Freeswitch-users] mod_g729 |
|
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On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 7:30 PM, Steve Underwood <steveu@coppice.org> wrote:
| Quote: | Depends what you are after. Speex offers the quality of G.729 at around
the same processing load. However, nobody seems to want to pay for the
processing load of G.729. Almost everything uses G.729A. Half the
processing load, but significantly poorer quality.
|
Throughout most of this thread I've been using G.729 and G.729a
interchangeably. That's sloppy on my part. Most of the time I meant
G.729a because that is what most people (everyone?) uses.
I was under the impression the quality difference wasn't that
significant. I can't say if I've ever knowingly used "true" G.729.
It certainly doesn't help that G.729a is allegedly completely
compatible with G.729, to the point where I don't think it's even
valid to use "G.729a" or annexa in an SDP...
| Quote: | VoIP is mostly a race to the bottom, and people wonder why it makes no
money for provides. :-\
|
Word Steve, word!
--
Kristian Kielhofner
http://blog.krisk.org
http://www.submityoursip.com
http://www.astlinux.org
http://www.star2star.com
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brian at freeswitch.org
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kristian.kielhofner at...
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dave at 3c.co.uk
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:18 am Post subject: [Freeswitch-users] mod_g729 |
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Steve Underwood wrote:
| Quote: | | Quote: | Depends what you are after. Speex offers the quality of G.729 at around
the same processing load. However, nobody seems to want to pay for the
processing load of G.729. Almost everything uses G.729A. Half the
processing load, but significantly poorer quality.
VoIP is mostly a race to the bottom, and people wonder why it makes no
money for provides. :-\
|
|
And, at the wholesale level, it makes no sense whatsoever to compress calls
any more: bandwidth is so cheap (and has been for a while) that the loss in
call quality - especially from tandem compressions - and the increased
processing requirements and other bits of expense do not stack up. Case in
point: we moved a route from G.711 to G.729, and saw the ACD drop from
over 10 to under 7 minutes. It was a route to mobiles, so the audio was being
recompressed with the GSM codec on its way to the handsets. Economically,
had we carried on using G.729, we'd have lost about 30% of our margin on
that route.
--Dave
| Quote: | --
David Knell, Director, 3C Limited
T: 020 8114 5002 F: 020 3002 7257 M: 07773 800623
http://www.3c.co.uk |
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krivushinme at rn-info...
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:49 am Post subject: [Freeswitch-users] mod_g729 |
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I wrote it becouse in Russia * is very popular. And it have g729.
I want to make popular FS in my country. We have not patent issues, but I more
like speex and celt - it's better in my opinion - 8 kHz is past century! It's
century of wb VoIP and not 8khz TDM! : )
Only for those who very need g729 in countries like Russia I made it public. I
dont tell you use it. In fact I tell to not use it - but if you cannot, you
can : )
--
С уважением, Кривушин Михаил
Ведущий специалист отдела телекоммуникаций,
ООО "РН-Информ" филиал в г.Томске,
г. Томск сот. +7 913 865 78 66
icq: 218 744 127
xmpp: KrivushinME@jabber.ru
mail: KrivushinME@rn-inform.tomsk.ru
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rehan at supertec.com
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steveu at coppice.org
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:15 am Post subject: [Freeswitch-users] mod_g729 |
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Kristian Kielhofner wrote:
| Quote: | On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 7:30 PM, Steve Underwood <steveu@coppice.org> wrote:
| Quote: | Depends what you are after. Speex offers the quality of G.729 at around
the same processing load. However, nobody seems to want to pay for the
processing load of G.729. Almost everything uses G.729A. Half the
processing load, but significantly poorer quality.
|
Throughout most of this thread I've been using G.729 and G.729a
interchangeably. That's sloppy on my part. Most of the time I meant
G.729a because that is what most people (everyone?) uses.
I was under the impression the quality difference wasn't that
significant. I can't say if I've ever knowingly used "true" G.729.
It certainly doesn't help that G.729a is allegedly completely
compatible with G.729, to the point where I don't think it's even
valid to use "G.729a" or annexa in an SDP...
|
There is no reason whatsoever to differentiate between G.729 and G.729A
in the SDP as the bit streams are 100% compatible. Annex A data is just
encoded and decoded in less optimal ways.
Regards,
Steve
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telles-listas at devel...
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:20 pm Post subject: [Freeswitch-users] mod_g729 |
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Hi Dave,
Down here in Brazil, the bandwidth costs is very high (around U$ 400.00/Mb) so it should be valid only for a "non" third
world country.
G729 and G723.1 is almost a law here, if you don't play at least with G729 your ITSP is out of mark share!
My 2 cents from a third world country.
Regards,
Rodrigo Telles
Em 23-01-2009 03:09, David Knell escreveu:
| Quote: | Steve Underwood wrote:
| Quote: | Depends what you are after. Speex offers the quality of G.729 at around
the same processing load. However, nobody seems to want to pay for the
processing load of G.729. Almost everything uses G.729A. Half the
processing load, but significantly poorer quality.
VoIP is mostly a race to the bottom, and people wonder why it makes no
money for provides. :-\
|
And, at the wholesale level, it makes no sense whatsoever to compress calls
any more: bandwidth is so cheap (and has been for a while) that the loss in
call quality - especially from tandem compressions - and the increased
processing requirements and other bits of expense do not stack up. Case in
point: we moved a route from G.711 to G.729, and saw the ACD drop from
over 10 to under 7 minutes. It was a route to mobiles, so the audio was
being
recompressed with the GSM codec on its way to the handsets. Economically,
had we carried on using G.729, we'd have lost about 30% of our margin on
that route.
--Dave
|
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msc at freeswitch.org
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:35 pm Post subject: [Freeswitch-users] mod_g729 |
|
|
On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 12:16 PM, Rodrigo P. Telles
<telles-listas@devel-it.com.br> wrote:
| Quote: | Hi Dave,
Down here in Brazil, the bandwidth costs is very high (around U$ 400.00/Mb) so it should be valid only for a "non" third
world country.
G729 and G723.1 is almost a law here, if you don't play at least with G729 your ITSP is out of mark share!
My 2 cents from a third world country.
|
What is the patent and licensing situation in Brazil? Those are also
factors. $10/port might be cheap in the US but in Brazil it could be
much more? (I'm asking...)
-MC
| Quote: |
Regards,
Rodrigo Telles
Em 23-01-2009 03:09, David Knell escreveu:
| Quote: | Steve Underwood wrote:
| Quote: | Depends what you are after. Speex offers the quality of G.729 at around
the same processing load. However, nobody seems to want to pay for the
processing load of G.729. Almost everything uses G.729A. Half the
processing load, but significantly poorer quality.
VoIP is mostly a race to the bottom, and people wonder why it makes no
money for provides. :-\
|
And, at the wholesale level, it makes no sense whatsoever to compress calls
any more: bandwidth is so cheap (and has been for a while) that the loss in
call quality - especially from tandem compressions - and the increased
processing requirements and other bits of expense do not stack up. Case in
point: we moved a route from G.711 to G.729, and saw the ACD drop from
over 10 to under 7 minutes. It was a route to mobiles, so the audio was
being
recompressed with the GSM codec on its way to the handsets. Economically,
had we carried on using G.729, we'd have lost about 30% of our margin on
that route.
--Dave
|
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