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mszlazak at aol.com
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 Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:59 pm Post subject: [Freeswitch-users] Call For Help: Janitor Projects |
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Call it what it is like "The Documentation Project" or something similar.
Sure, if there was no code there is no FS but I didn't say the code is not important. I was taking a sales/marketing versus engineering analogy to this and only said that many would find it less important than good documentation if you are looking to get people to use FS and/or evolve the code. So as long as the creators of FS are willing to work to some extent on the documentation with a documentor, when one is needed, then this should work out. The creators have a very good understanding of FS which the documentor may not. On the other hand, the documentor doesn't have the creators background baggage which makes things seem obvious to the creator but isn't to users or even other developers. The creators and documentors working together will hopefully make the FS documentation accurate, not to presumptuous and easy to use.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian West <brian@freeswitch.org>
To: freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org
Sent: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 1:42 am
Subject: Re: [Freeswitch-users] Call For Help: Janitor Projects
What do you recommend calling it then? I wouldn't be offended by it ... and I can't think of any reason it would offend someone because it describes the task at hand. As far as documentation vs code... without the code there would be ZERO need for any documentation. The code is the hardest part to make sure it functions bug free. Developers are great at writing code but not the best at writing documentation, me included. It's the perfect place for anyone that wants to help out! I welcome anyone and everyone to the project in hopes that community members will help out!
We have various IRC channels... #freeswitch, #freeswitch-dev, #freeswitch-docs and #freeswitch-social so join irc.freenode.net and get involved because you never know how it might change your life for the better! 
/b
Positive anything is better than negative thinking.
On Apr 1, 2009, at 1:21 AM, mszlazak@aol.com (mszlazak@aol.com) wrote:
| Quote: | First off. I would not call it a "janitors project" since that may offend some. A second problem is your notion that documentation is "not-quite-as-important" a task as writing code. I'm think many would say you have that backwards. There is nothing more effective in evolving FreeSwitch than good documentation which helps further development and is an important part of "customer service." Good customer service is then a part of "sales and marketing." Much more often than not, It's sales and marketing that is more important to making something a "real product" than engineering. "Build it and they will come" almost never works.
Anyway, I think you need a new name for this project. |
Brian West
brian@freeswitch.org (brian@freeswitch.org)
-- Meet us a ClueCon! http://www.cluecon.com
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mszlazak at aol.com
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| Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:04 pm Post subject: [Freeswitch-users] Call For Help: Janitor Projects |
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nope
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian West <brian@freeswitch.org>
To: freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org
Sent: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 10:39 am
Subject: Re: [Freeswitch-users] Call For Help: Janitor Projects
Are you referring to PocketSphinx here?
/b
On Apr 1, 2009, at 12:24 PM, mszlazak@aol.com (mszlazak@aol.com) wrote:
| Quote: | | Currently the documentation is scattered, assumes to much and is outdated/incorrected. |
Brian West
brian@freeswitch.org (brian@freeswitch.org)
-- Meet us a ClueCon! http://www.cluecon.com
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mszlazak at aol.com
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| Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:12 pm Post subject: [Freeswitch-users] Call For Help: Janitor Projects |
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Excellent! The core developers/creators should stay active in the documentation process.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian West <brian@freeswitch.org>
To: freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org
Sent: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 10:52 am
Subject: Re: [Freeswitch-users] Call For Help: Janitor Projects
On Apr 1, 2009, at 12:45 PM, mszlazak@aol.com (mszlazak@aol.com) wrote:
| Quote: | Call it what it is like "The Documentation Project" or something similar.
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Because its MORE than Documentation! So that name is silly!
| Quote: |
Sure, if there was no code there is no FS but I didn't say the code is not important. I was taking a sales/marketing versus engineering analogy to this and only said that many would find it less important than good documentation if you are looking to get people to use FS and/or evolve the code. So as long as the creators of FS are willing to work to some extent on the documentation with a documentor, when one is needed, then this should work out. The creators have a very good understanding of FS which the documentor may not. On the other hand, the documentor doesn't have the creators background baggage which makes things seem obvious to the creator but isn't to users or even other developers. The creators and documentors working together will hopefully make the FS documentation accura! te, not to presumptuous and easy to use.
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Well if people join IRC... ask questions we do answer them... so if people don't understand something all they have to do is ask we won't bite.
Brian West
brian@freeswitch.org (brian@freeswitch.org)
-- Meet us a ClueCon! http://www.cluecon.com
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mszlazak at aol.com
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| Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:17 pm Post subject: [Freeswitch-users] Call For Help: Janitor Projects |
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"The holy grail magic documentation that is like the hitchhikers guide to the galaxy or harry potter's marauder's map can tune into what you need to know or what you don't understand and magically adjusts."!
Maybe your projecting or exaggerating but I didn't say anything like that. However, the important point was "we have a lot of users like that." Enough said.
-----Original Message-----
From: Anthony Minessale <anthony.minessale@gmail.com>
To: freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org
Sent: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 6:19 am
Subject: Re: [Freeswitch-users] Call For Help: Janitor Projects
have a look.
http://www.google.com/search?q=janitor+project
The phrase has already been coined.
If you look closely we have 2 different perspectives in this thread.
mszlazak is seeking more of the higher level user documentation, the holy grail magic documentation that
is like the hitchhikers guide to the galaxy or harry potter's marauder's map can tune into what you need to know
or what you don't understand and magically adjusts. This is normal, . The majority of users
will treat us like they are buying the software from us and impose their expectations on us. It's helpful to us, it lets us
see things from their perspective.
Seven is looking it at more from a developer's perspective, he's actually willing to take the time to add things
to the wiki and he wants to understand how the code works. This is a good thing too, there are far less people of this type
in our community but they are crucial.
Core developers document by explaining what they are doing to people like Seven or by putting a reminder in the commit notes which are later translated into the CHANGELOG for the releases. Michael, the author of this thread has added countless pages of documentation to the wiki this way. It's easy to say the author should document everything. There is close to 300,000 lines of
code in just the src directory in the FreeSWITCH tree (that is all code we wrote not counting any of the depends libs or any other form of pre-existing code). I personally wrote the majority of that code so, I really appricate it when the communiuty gives me a few minutes to take a break while they document it. The best people to document the high level fuctionality is not the author btw. It's the first few people who use it. Most likely they are developing a product from it and they intend to profit from it in one way or another and its a fair tradeoff to have the section of functionality explained to them in exchange from wikifying it from their perspective. The perspective of the author will be dry and mechinacal where that first-time-user version of the documentation will make much more sense to future readers.
When it comes to the low level documentation, the C functions, we also need someone to help us with that if they feel there is not enough. We write code, we know how it works. If other people cannot figure out how it works, they will ask us and in the end it will be doucmented. About 5% or less of people in the community even have to look in the code for the core. The whole point of the FreeSWITCH design is to push everything up to scripts, remote connections and dialplan logic to let people concentrate on good ideas instead of the evil logic necessary to properly engineer a telephony engine. So I recommend anybody interested starts out making sure there is ample documentation for the embedded and external API for lua, js, perl, python, ESL etc. Then anybody who really likes C code can start with the module API layer and then dig deeper into the core code and learn how it works and if the documentation is not enough, add some, we appriciat! e any help we can get.
2009/4/1 <mszlazak@aol.com (mszlazak@aol.com)>
| Quote: | First off. I would not call it a "janitors project" since that may offend some. A second problem is your notion that documentation is "not-quite-as-important" a task as writing code. I'm think many would say you have that backwards. There is nothing more effective in evolving FreeSwitch than good documentation which helps further development and is an important part of "customer service." Good customer service is then a part of "sales and marketing." Much more often than not, It's sales and marketing that is more important to making something a "real product" than engineering. "Build it and they will come" almost never works.
Anyway, I think you need a new name for this project.
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Collins <msc@freeswitch.org (msc@freeswitch.org)>
To: freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org (freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org) <freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org (freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org)>; freeswitch-dev@lists.freeswitch.org (freeswitch-dev@lists.freeswitch.org)
Sent: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 5:10 pm
Subject: [Freeswitch-users] Call For Help: Janitor Projects
Dear FreeSWITCH Community:
As you know, FreeSWITCH has been growing leaps and bounds and it's going to keep growing as the word spreads. The core development team of Anthony, Mike, and Brian are very appreciative of the community's help and involvement in the project. Simply put: the community is awesome!
Some have asked how they can help. Most of us are not software developers, but that doesn't mean we can't help to grow the FreeSWITCH ecosystem. To this end I've started a "janitor projects" wiki page:
http://wiki.freeswitch.org/wiki/Janitor_Projects
We say "janitor" projects because they are things that help keep the project clean and organized, just like the janitor cleans an office, takes out the trash, replaces the toilet paper, etc. These are valuable services that we sometimes take for granted. However, I think we can all appreciate that the FreeSWITCH project would be better served if the developers could focus on writing code, fixing bugs, etc. and not on the easier, not-quite-as-important janitorial tasks. To that end we are inviting all who wish to volunteer to please visit the above wiki page and check out some of the projects listed so far. Email me off list if you'd like to volunteer to help. I'm maintaining a list of "janitors" and what they are helping with. If you have ideas for other janitor projects then by all means email them to me and we'll discuss them.
Thanks again for being such a great community!
-Michael S Collins
IRC: mercutioviz
See you at ClueCon 2009! http://www.cluecon.com
New Low Prices on Dell Laptops - Starting at $399
_______________________________________________
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--
Anthony Minessale II
FreeSWITCH http://www.freeswitch.org/
ClueCon http://www.cluecon.com/
AIM: anthm
MSN:anthony_minessale@hotmail.com ([email]MSN%3Aanthony_minessale@hotmail.com[/email])
GTALK/JABBER/PAYPAL:anthony.minessale@gmail.com ([email]PAYPAL%3Aanthony.minessale@gmail.com[/email])
IRC: irc.freenode.net #freeswitch
FreeSWITCH Developer Conference
sip:888@conference.freeswitch.org ([email]sip%3A888@conference.freeswitch.org[/email])
iax:guest@conference.freeswitch.org/888
googletalk:conf+888@conference.freeswitch.org ([email]googletalk%3Aconf%2B888@conference.freeswitch.org[/email])
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brian at freeswitch.org
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| Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:18 pm Post subject: [Freeswitch-users] Call For Help: Janitor Projects |
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On Apr 1, 2009, at 12:45 PM, mszlazak@aol.com (mszlazak@aol.com) wrote:
| Quote: | Call it what it is like "The Documentation Project" or something similar.
|
Because its MORE than Documentation! So that name is silly!
| Quote: |
Sure, if there was no code there is no FS but I didn't say the code is not important. I was taking a sales/marketing versus engineering analogy to this and only said that many would find it less important than good documentation if you are looking to get people to use FS and/or evolve the code. So as long as the creators of FS are willing to work to some extent on the documentation with a documentor, when one is needed, then this should work out. The creators have a very good understanding of FS which the documentor may not. On the other hand, the documentor doesn't have the creators background baggage which makes things seem obvious to the creator but isn't to users or even other developers. The creators and documentors working together will hopefully make the FS documentation accurate, not to presumptuous and easy to use.
|
Well if people join IRC... ask questions we do answer them... so if people don't understand something all they have to do is ask we won't bite.
Brian West
brian@freeswitch.org (brian@freeswitch.org)
-- Meet us a ClueCon! http://www.cluecon.com |
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msc at freeswitch.org
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| Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:25 pm Post subject: [Freeswitch-users] Call For Help: Janitor Projects |
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2009/4/1 <mszlazak@aol.com (mszlazak@aol.com)>
| Quote: | Pardon me, but you speak only for yourself. I think Janitor is not an appropriate word.
|
I like janitors. I respect janitors. They are honorable and hard-working. In short, we need janitors - people who are willing to roll up their sleeves and get work done. Let's agree to disagree on this word. If you don't like the word janitor then I will respect your viewpoint. Use the word "custodian" instead. However, the developers and all the core "power-users" have no qualms with the use of the word janitor. They will be called janitor projects; this point is not up for discussion. Let's all move on.
As to your other points: yes, the core developers are involved in the documentation. They don't micromanage, but they give direction. When something is wrong they point it out. When there is a need, they make it known. When they get asked a lot of questions on a specific topic they tell me there's a need for documentation on the subject. Also, we have a number of users who are watching the mailing list and IRC channel who take it upon themselves to document the various nuggets of wisdom that get passed around in the threads. And I do my best to do same-day documentation when Anthony adds a new channel variable or new functionality to a module.
As for documentation being outdated/scattered/incomplete/<insert-your-complain-here>: Many of these observations are valid. There are serious needs - a lot of stuff needs cleaning up. (Which, ironically, is what janitors do very well.) However, let me make this point very clear: general statements like "the docs are out of date" are all but worthless. What we need are specific statements, like "I tried to follow the wiki instructions on pocketsphinx but I think they might be outdated or incorrect. May I discuss it with someone in the know?" All such specific comments are welcome. They can be sent to me personally, to this list, or on IRC. FYI, we do have a channel specifically for documentation discussion: #freeswitch-docs. Please join that channel to discuss this subject in real-time.
All that being said, here's the bottom line: If you're willing to help then please do so. If you aren't sure where to start then contact me off list and we'll discuss it. If you have have positive feedback then please publish it publicly. If you have negative feedback, criticism, complaints, etc. then please send it to me in private.
I've got my coveralls, my mop, and my bucket. Who's with me? 
-MC |
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anthony.minessale at g...
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| Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:34 pm Post subject: [Freeswitch-users] Call For Help: Janitor Projects |
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Did you follow the link I posted?
http://www.google.com/search?q=janitor+project
The linux kernel calls it the same thing and so do all the other project that come up in that search.
Would you prefer "Custodial Engineering projects"
I tried to be nice but you continue to perpetuate this thread.
Another term you may not be familiar with is when someone who is outnumbered starts trying to
get the last word on a mailing list or forum, they're called "trolls"
Exactly how much have you contributed to this project other than complaints?
You initially contacted us at our consulting address, where we then called you on the phone and helped you for 2 hours for free even though we know your goal is to develop a product from FreeSWITCH and most people in your position offer to pay us for our time. (make as many products as you want, that's why we made FreeSWITCH so good for you, but, usually if you want *that much* help you have to pay for it)
You started using modules that were just written at the time you came around on a platform on which the module only was compiling for a week, give us a break.....
We have all helped you on the list and documented things *for you* on several dozen occasions.
I don't want anything in return but for you to please stop commenting on this thread.
This is not a mob rule project, I will make the decisions for it when I see fit and when I seek the input of others, I ask for it and when I don't want any input I do whatever I want. It's a perk of running your own project. I personally don't care what Collins calls it, janitor project or whatever, at least he is show initiative and getting people involved.
2009/4/1 <mszlazak@aol.com (mszlazak@aol.com)>
| Quote: | Pardon me, but you speak only for yourself. I think Janitor is not an appropriate word.
Second, 'marketing and sales' does not only mean making money. It also means 'selling' someone on the idea of trying something and effectively spreading the word.
Third, the original developers can spend most of their time developing because they're the creators so they know very well what's going on with the code and don't need good documentation. Others need good documentation to effectively work with FS or do development. Currently the documentation is scattered, assumes to much and is outdated/incorrected. Also, there is a problem with not getting the "creators" involved with documentation since someone doing the documentation will have to ask them what's what. The "creators" never will be totally out of the loop nor should they be. This doesn't apply only here in this context but other similar ones as well. Keeping "creators" from inteact with "customers" is one big reason so many start-ups fail.
-----Original Message-----
From: Raul Fragoso <raul@etellicom.com (raul@etellicom.com)>
To: freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org (freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org)
Sent: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 1:29 am
Subject: Re: [Freeswitch-users] Call For Help: Janitor Projects
| Quote: | Pardon my honesty, but I think you are the one who is getting this
backwards.
Firstly, I fail to see why a call for help with organizing and cleaning
up the project documentation would offend someone by simply having
"janitor" as the name. Have you ever heard the term "gatekeeper"
before ? Would it offend you ? Think again.
Secondly, FreeSWITCH is an open-source project, so forget the 'marketing
& sales' crap in the context of documentation. The success of the
project, which is growing incredibly fast, is built upon the
collaboration of the community as a whole, and it's common sense that
sharing the project tasks is a major necessary step to keep it going,
just like a janitor is of primordial importance to keep an office
building organized and clean.
Last but not the least, I agree entirely with the fact that the core
developers should be doing what they do it best, and that is, of course,
development. I see this call for help request as an effective way of
keeping them developing new features and improving the current
functionality of FreeSWITCH while sharing the burden of documentation
and organization. That's fair and sounds very logical to me. If you join
the FreeSWITCH IRC channel and hang in there for a bit you will
understand what I mean, most of the time these guys are busy responding
to user questions or analyzing use cases that could be easily solved by
checking a more organized documentation, and this is what Michael's
request is all about.
Regards,
Raul
On Wed, 2009-04-01 at 02:21 -0400, mszlazak@aol.com (mszlazak@aol.com) wrote:
| Quote: | First off. I would not call it a "janitors project" since that may
offend some. A second problem is your notion that documentation is
"not-quite-as-important" a task as writing code. I'm think many would
say you have that backwards. There is nothing more effective in
evolving FreeSwitch than good documentation which helps further
development and is an important part of "customer service." Good
customer service is then a part of "sales and marketing." Much more
often than not, It's sales and marketing that is more important to
making something a "real product" than engineering. "Build it and
they will come" almost never works.
Anyway, I think you need a new name for this project.
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Collins <msc@freeswitch.org (msc@freeswitch.org)>
To: freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org (freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org)
<freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org (freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org)>;
freeswitch-dev@lists.freeswitch.org (freeswitch-dev@lists.freeswitch.org)
Sent: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 5:10 pm
Subject: [Freeswitch-users] Call For Help: Janitor Projects
Dear FreeSWITCH Community:
As you know, FreeSWITCH has been growing leaps and bounds and it's
going to keep growing as the word spreads. The core development team
of Anthony, Mike, and Brian are very appreciative of the community's
help and involvement in the project. Simply put: the community is
awesome!
Some have asked how they can help. Most of us are not software
developers, but that doesn't mean we can't help to grow the FreeSWITCH
ecosystem. To this end I've started a "janitor projects" wiki page:
http://wiki.freeswitch.org/wiki/Janitor_Projects
We say "janitor" projects because they are things that help keep the
project clean and organized, just like the janitor cleans an office,
takes out the trash, replaces the toilet paper, etc. These are
valuable services that we sometimes take for granted. However, I think
we can all appreciate that the FreeSWITCH project would be better
served if the developers could focus on writing code, fixing bugs,
etc. and not on the easier, not-quite-as-important janitorial tasks.
To that end we are inviting all who wish to volunteer to please visit
the above wiki page and check out some of the projects listed so far.
Email me off list if you'd like to volunteer to help. I'm maintaining
a list of "janitors" and what they are helping with. If you have ideas
for other janitor projects then by all means email them to me and
we'll discuss them.
Thanks again for being such a great community!
-Michael S Collins
IRC: mercutioviz
See you at ClueCon 2009! http://www.cluecon.com
_______________________________________________
Freeswitch-users mailing list
Freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org (Freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org)
http://lists.freeswitch.org/mailman/listinfo/freeswitch-users
UNSUBSCRIBE:http://lists.freeswitch.org/mailman/options/freeswitch-users
http://www.freeswitch.org
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--
Anthony Minessale II
FreeSWITCH http://www.freeswitch.org/
ClueCon http://www.cluecon.com/
AIM: anthm
MSN:anthony_minessale@hotmail.com ([email]MSN%3Aanthony_minessale@hotmail.com[/email])
GTALK/JABBER/PAYPAL:anthony.minessale@gmail.com ([email]PAYPAL%3Aanthony.minessale@gmail.com[/email])
IRC: irc.freenode.net #freeswitch
FreeSWITCH Developer Conference
sip:888@conference.freeswitch.org ([email]sip%3A888@conference.freeswitch.org[/email])
iax:guest@conference.freeswitch.org/888
googletalk:conf+888@conference.freeswitch.org ([email]googletalk%3Aconf%2B888@conference.freeswitch.org[/email])
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intralanman at freeswi...
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:37 pm Post subject: [Freeswitch-users] Call For Help: Janitor Projects |
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mszlazak@aol.com (mszlazak@aol.com) wrote: | Quote: | Pardon me, but you speak only for yourself. I think Janitor is not an appropriate word.
|
you're welcome to your opinions, no matter how wrong they are
| Quote: |
Second, 'marketing and sales' does not only mean making money. It also means 'selling' someone on the idea of trying something and effectively spreading the word.
|
we don't try to sell anyone on the project... we'll tell you the pros and cons, you decide if the software meets your needs or not.
| Quote: |
Third, the original developers can spend most of their time developing because they're the creators so they know very well what's going on with the code and don't need good documentation. Others need good documentation to effectively work with FS or do development. Currently the documentation is scattered, assumes to much and is outdated/incorrected.
|
maybe you could fix some of that since you seem to be very enlightened to its shortcomings? although, that might offend your delicate psyche since you'd basically be a "janitor" then.
| Quote: | Also, there is a problem with not getting the "creators" involved with documentation since someone doing the documentation will have to ask them what's what. The "creators" never will be totally out of the loop nor should they be. This doesn't apply only here in this context but other similar ones as well. Keeping "creators" from inteact with "customers" is one big reason so many start-ups fail.
|
hmmm, maybe you're right... maybe the whole idea of hierarchy is entirely wrong.
i guess we could expect tony to document his own code... while we're at it, let's suggest that microsoft has Bill Gates write documentation for windows and answer tech support calls, right? cus i mean, obviously everyone who writes code should obviously do everything else too, right?
but i guess that doesn't work the other direction... cus if you don't know how to code, then you just can't code... its as simple as that. so now we have effectively halved (or better) the development activities of FreeSWITCH so there's less to document, but that's ok, because now there's plenty of people using it and not contributing anything back... and that's what open-source is really all about, right?
btw, i'm just curious if you're an employee of a commercial entity that feels threatened by FreeSWITCH... what better way to decrease productivity than to split hairs over something so stupid as the name of an effort (janitor projects, in this case) that you're not going to take part in anyway.
if i may ask, have you done anything constructive for the community at all? all i've seen of you from the mailing lists is non-constructive criticisms. not that we don't appreciate your trolling... its very entertaining to see how narrow-minded some people are.
-Ray |
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timr at asteriasgi.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:57 pm Post subject: [Freeswitch-users] Call For Help: Janitor Projects |
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Anthony Minessale wrote:
| Quote: | Did you follow the link I posted?
http://www.google.com/search?q=janitor+project
The linux kernel calls it the same thing and so do all the other
project that come up in that search.
Would you prefer "Custodial Engineering projects"
|
It definitely is the commonly used term for that sort of thing. But I
would tend to agree that I wouldn't expect people to get excited about
volunteering to be a janitor. Any idea how successful those projects are
at attracting volunteers?
Sadly, I don't have a better suggestion. But no matter how much Michael
says he loves janitors, to me a janitor is someone who has to clean up
other people's crap (figuratively and sometimes literally). And I can
see how that could fail to attract as many volunteers as the "Freeswitch
Happy, Rich, and Well Endowed people" project might.
| Quote: | I tried to be nice but you continue to perpetuate this thread.
Another term you may not be familiar with is when someone who is
outnumbered starts trying to
get the last word on a mailing list or forum, they're called "trolls"
|
I always thought trolls had to be trying to really be considered a
troll. Like if I were to post to this list trying to convince you all to
give up on freeswitch and join the asterisk project, while knowing full
well the history, and just trying to get a rise out of you.
--Tim
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msc at freeswitch.org
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 2:07 pm Post subject: [Freeswitch-users] Call For Help: Janitor Projects |
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On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 11:46 AM, Tim Ringenbach <timr@asteriasgi.com (timr@asteriasgi.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Anthony Minessale wrote:
| Quote: | Did you follow the link I posted?
http://www.google.com/search?q=janitor+project
The linux kernel calls it the same thing and so do all the other
project that come up in that search.
Would you prefer "Custodial Engineering projects"
|
It definitely is the commonly used term for that sort of thing. But I
would tend to agree that I wouldn't expect people to get excited about
volunteering to be a janitor. Any idea how successful those projects are
at attracting volunteers?
Sadly, I don't have a better suggestion. But no matter how much Michael
says he loves janitors, to me a janitor is someone who has to clean up
other people's crap (figuratively and sometimes literally). And I can
see how that could fail to attract as many volunteers as the "Freeswitch
Happy, Rich, and Well Endowed people" project might. |
Like I said: Grab a mop and bucket or get outta the way! It's time to take out the trash.
-MC |
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anthony.minessale at g...
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 2:12 pm Post subject: [Freeswitch-users] Call For Help: Janitor Projects |
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how about:
"WALL-E projects" maybe Steve J will give us permission.
On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 1:46 PM, Tim Ringenbach <timr@asteriasgi.com (timr@asteriasgi.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Anthony Minessale wrote:
| Quote: | Did you follow the link I posted?
http://www.google.com/search?q=janitor+project
The linux kernel calls it the same thing and so do all the other
project that come up in that search.
Would you prefer "Custodial Engineering projects"
|
It definitely is the commonly used term for that sort of thing. But I
would tend to agree that I wouldn't expect people to get excited about
volunteering to be a janitor. Any idea how successful those projects are
at attracting volunteers?
Sadly, I don't have a better suggestion. But no matter how much Michael
says he loves janitors, to me a janitor is someone who has to clean up
other people's crap (figuratively and sometimes literally). And I can
see how that could fail to attract as many volunteers as the "Freeswitch
Happy, Rich, and Well Endowed people" project might.
| Quote: | I tried to be nice but you continue to perpetuate this thread.
Another term you may not be familiar with is when someone who is
outnumbered starts trying to
get the last word on a mailing list or forum, they're called "trolls"
|
I always thought trolls had to be trying to really be considered a
troll. Like if I were to post to this list trying to convince you all to
give up on freeswitch and join the asterisk project, while knowing full
well the history, and just trying to get a rise out of you.
--Tim
_______________________________________________
Freeswitch-users mailing list
Freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org (Freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org)
http://lists.freeswitch.org/mailman/listinfo/freeswitch-users
UNSUBSCRIBE:http://lists.freeswitch.org/mailman/options/freeswitch-users
http://www.freeswitch.org
|
--
Anthony Minessale II
FreeSWITCH http://www.freeswitch.org/
ClueCon http://www.cluecon.com/
AIM: anthm
MSN:anthony_minessale@hotmail.com ([email]MSN%3Aanthony_minessale@hotmail.com[/email])
GTALK/JABBER/PAYPAL:anthony.minessale@gmail.com ([email]PAYPAL%3Aanthony.minessale@gmail.com[/email])
IRC: irc.freenode.net #freeswitch
FreeSWITCH Developer Conference
sip:888@conference.freeswitch.org ([email]sip%3A888@conference.freeswitch.org[/email])
iax:guest@conference.freeswitch.org/888
googletalk:conf+888@conference.freeswitch.org ([email]googletalk%3Aconf%2B888@conference.freeswitch.org[/email])
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mszlazak at aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:45 pm Post subject: [Freeswitch-users] Call For Help: Janitor Projects |
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You tried to be nice! Give me a break. Maybe try harder next time.
-----Original Message-----
From: Anthony Minessale <anthony.minessale@gmail.com>
To: freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org
Sent: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 11:23 am
Subject: Re: [Freeswitch-users] Call For Help: Janitor Projects
Did you follow the link I posted?
http://www.google.com/search?q=janitor+project
The linux kernel calls it the same thing and so do all the other project that come up in that search.
Would you prefer "Custodial Engineering projects"
I tried to be nice but you continue to perpetuate this thread.
Another term you may not be familiar with is when someone who is outnumbered starts trying to
get the last word on a mailing list or forum, they're called "trolls"
Exactly how much have you contributed to this project other than complaints?
You initially contacted us at our consulting address, where we then called you on the phone and helped you for 2 hours for free even though we know your goal is to develop a product from FreeSWITCH and most people in your position offer to pay us for our time. (make as many products as you want, that's why we made FreeSWITCH so good for you, but, usually if you want *that much* help you have to pay for it)
You started using modules that were just written at the time you came around on a platform on which the module only was compiling for a week, give us a break.....
We have all helped you on the list and documented things *for you* on several dozen occasions.
I don't want anything in return but for you to please stop commenting on this thread.
This is not a mob rule project, I will make the decisions for it when I see fit and when I seek the input of others, I ask for it and when I don't want any input I do whatever I want. It's a perk of running your own project. I personally don't care what Collins calls it, janitor project or whatever, at least he is show initiative and getting people involved.
2009/4/1 <mszlazak@aol.com (mszlazak@aol.com)>
| Quote: | Pardon me, but you speak only for yourself. I think Janitor is not an appropriate word.
Second, 'marketing and sales' does not only mean making money. It also means 'selling' someone on the idea of trying something and effectively spreading the word.
Third, the original developers can spend most of their time developing because they're the creators so they know very well what's going on with the code and don't need good documentation. Others need good documentation to effectively work with FS or do development. Currently the documentation is scattered, assumes to much and is outdated/incorrected. Also, there is a problem with not getting the "creators" involved with documentation since someone doing the documentation will have to ask them what's what. The "creators" never will be totally out of the loop nor should they be. This doesn't apply only here in this context but other similar ones as well. Keeping "creators" from inteact with "customers" is one big reason so many start-ups fail.
-----Original Message-----
From: Raul Fragoso <raul@etellicom.com (raul@etellicom.com)>
To: freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org (freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org)
Sent: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 1:29 am
Subject: Re: [Freeswitch-users] Call For Help: Janitor Projects
| Quote: | Pardon my honesty, but I think you are the one who is getting this
backwards.
Firstly, I fail to see why a call for help with organizing and cleaning
up the project documentation would offend someone by simply having
"janitor" as the name. Have you ever heard the term "gatekeeper"
before ? Would it offend you ? Think again.
Secondly, FreeSWITCH is an open-source project, so forget the 'marketing
& sales' crap in the context of documentation. The success of the
project, which is growing incredibly fast, is built upon the
collaboration of the community as a whole, and it's common sense that
sharing the project tasks is a major necessary step to keep it going,
just like a janitor is of primordial importance to keep an office
building organized and clean.
Last but not the least, I agree entirely with the fact that the core
developers should be doing what they do it best, and that is, of course,
development. I see this call for help request as an effective way of
keeping them developing new features and improving the current
functionality of FreeSWITCH while sharing the burden of documentation
and organization. That's fair and sounds very logical to me. If you join
the FreeSWITCH IRC channel and hang in there for a bit you will
understand what I mean, most of the time these guys are busy responding
to user questions or analyzing use cases that could be easily solved by
checking a more organized documentation, and this is what Michael's
request is all about.
Regards,
Raul
On Wed, 2009-04-01 at 02:21 -0400, mszlazak@aol.com (mszlazak@aol.com) wrote:
| Quote: | First off. I would not call it a "janitors project" since that may
|
| Quote: | offend some. A second problem is your notion that documentation is
|
| Quote: | "not-quite-as-important" a task as writing code. I'm think many would
|
| Quote: | say you have that backwards. There is nothing more effective in
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| Quote: | evolving FreeSwitch than good documentation which helps further
|
| Quote: | development and is an important part of "customer service." Good
|
| Quote: | customer service is then a part of "sales and marketing." Much more
|
| Quote: | often than not, It's sales and marketing that is more important to
|
| Quote: | making something a "real product" than engineering. "Build it and
|
| Quote: | they will come" almost never works.
|
| Quote: | Anyway, I think you need a new name for this project.
|
| Quote: | -----Original Message-----
|
| Quote: | Sent: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 5:10 pm
|
| Quote: | Subject: [Freeswitch-users] Call For Help: Janitor Projects
|
| Quote: | Dear FreeSWITCH Community:
|
| Quote: | As you know, FreeSWITCH has been growing leaps and bounds and it's
|
| Quote: | going to keep growing as the word spreads. The core development team
|
| Quote: | of Anthony, Mike, and Brian are very appreciative of the community's
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| Quote: | help and involvement in the project. Simply put: the community is
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| Quote: | Some have asked how they can help. Most of us are not software
|
| Quote: | developers, but that doesn't mean we can't help to grow the FreeSWITCH
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| Quote: | ecosystem. To this end I've started a "janitor projects" wiki page:
|
| Quote: | We say "janitor" projects because they are things that help keep the
|
| Quote: | project clean and organized, just like the janitor cleans an office,
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| Quote: | takes out the trash, replaces the toilet paper, etc. These are
|
| Quote: | valuable services that we sometimes take for granted. However, I think
|
| Quote: | we can all appreciate that the FreeSWITCH project would be better
|
| Quote: | served if the developers could focus on writing code, fixing bugs,
|
| Quote: | etc. and not on the easier, not-quite-as-important janitorial tasks.
|
| Quote: | To that end we are inviting all who wish to volunteer to please visit
|
| Quote: | the above wiki page and check out some of the projects listed so far.
|
| Quote: | Email me off list if you'd like to volunteer to help. I'm maintaining
|
| Quote: | a list of "janitors" and what they are helping with. If you have ideas
|
| Quote: | for other janitor projects then by all means email them to me and
|
| Quote: | we'll discuss them.
|
| Quote: | Thanks again for being such a great community!
|
| Quote: | -Michael S Collins
|
| Quote: | _______________________________________________
|
| Quote: | Freeswitch-users mailing list
|
| Quote: | ______________________________________________________________________
|
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| Quote: | _______________________________________________
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| Quote: | Freeswitch-users mailing list
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--
Anthony Minessale II
FreeSWITCH http://www.freeswitch.org/
ClueCon http://www.cluecon.com/
AIM: anthm
MSN:anthony_minessale@hotmail.com ([email]MSN%3Aanthony_minessale@hotmail.com[/email])
GTALK/JABBER/PAYPAL:anthony.minessale@gmail.com ([email]PAYPAL%3Aanthony.minessale@gmail.com[/email])
IRC: irc.freenode.net #freeswitch
FreeSWITCH Developer Conference
sip:888@conference.freeswitch.org ([email]sip%3A888@conference.freeswitch.org[/email])
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mszlazak at aol.com
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:48 pm Post subject: [Freeswitch-users] Call For Help: Janitor Projects |
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You missed the point again. But suffer fools to long.
-----Original Message-----
From: Raymond Chandler <intralanman@freeswitch.org>
To: freeswitch-users@lists.freeswitch.org
Sent: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 11:29 am
Subject: Re: [Freeswitch-users] Call For Help: Janitor Projects
mszlazak@aol.com (mszlazak@aol.com) wrote: | Quote: | Pardon me, but you speak only for yourself. I think Janitor is not an appropriate word.
|
you're welcome to your opinions, no matter how wrong they are
| Quote: |
Second, 'marketing and sales' does not only mean making money. It also means 'selling' someone on the idea of trying something and effectively spreading the word.
|
we don't try to sell anyone on the project... we'll tell you the pros and cons, you decide if the software meets your needs or not.
| Quote: |
Third, the original developers can spend most of their time developing because they're the creators so they know very well what's going on with the code and don't need good documentation. Others need good documentation to effectively work with FS or do development. Currently the documentation is scattered, assumes to much and is outdated/incorrected.
|
maybe you could fix some of that since you seem to be very enlightened to its shortcomings? although, that might offend your delicate psyche since you'd basically be a "janitor" then.
| Quote: | Also, there is a problem with not getting the "creators" involved with documentation since someone doing the documentation will have to ask them what's what. The "creators" never will be totally out of the loop nor should they be. This doesn't apply only here in this context but other similar ones as well. Keeping "creators" from inteact with "customers" is one big reason so many start-ups fail.
|
hmmm, maybe you're right... maybe the whole idea of hierarchy is entirely wrong.
i guess we could expect tony to document his own code... while we're at it, let's suggest that microsoft has Bill Gates write documentation for windows and answer tech support calls, right? cus i mean, obviously everyone who writes code should obviously do everything else too, right?
but i guess that doesn't work the other direction... cus if you don't know how to code, then you just can't code... its as simple as that. so now we have effectively halved (or better) the development activities of FreeSWITCH so there's less to document, but that's ok, because now there's plenty of people using it and not contributing anything back... and that's what open-source is really all about, right?
btw, i'm just curious if you're an employee of a commercial entity that feels threatened by FreeSWITCH... what better way to decrease productivity than to split hairs over something so stupid as the name of an effort (janitor projects, in this case) that you're not going to take part in anyway.
if i may ask, have you done anything constructive for the community at all? all i've seen of you from the mailing lists is non-constructive criticisms. not that we don't appreciate your trolling... its very entertaining to see how narrow-minded some people are.
-Ray
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intralanman at freeswi...
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:12 pm Post subject: [Freeswitch-users] Call For Help: Janitor Projects |
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mszlazak@aol.com (mszlazak@aol.com) wrote: | Quote: | You missed the point again. But suffer fools to long.
|
No, I think you missed the point... several times. The point that most of us are trying to make is "if you're not going to help, you have no room to talk". Although, I guess your approach works for you. If you're clearly outwitted, resort to name calling.
I've seen a couple of people, including myself, ask if you've done anything except complain. I have not, however, seen you reply with anything intelligent or any contributions that you have made.
So to try to make the point again. If you're not contributing anything, then leave us all alone. Hopefully, you're not so feeble-minded that you miss it twice in the same email. If you offer up ideas and they are accepted or considered, then you are a contributor. The point at which you offer your ideas and several members of the community, including the most involved, all disagree with you... you become a troll. It would be greatly apprciated by all persons involved if you, and your misguided opinions, would just concede and leave this thread alone.
We now return you to the troll-free "Call For Help"
-Ray |
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