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palbrecht at glccom.com
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 Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:46 am Post subject: [asterisk-users] AstriDevCon 2014: Agenda item Deprecate AMI |
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On Oct 22, 2014, at 3:39 PM, Matthew Jordan <mjordan@digium.com (mjordan@digium.com)> wrote:
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On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 1:55 PM, Paul Albrecht <palbrecht@glccom.com (palbrecht@glccom.com)> wrote:
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On Oct 22, 2014, at 11:31 AM, Matthew Jordan <mjordan@digium.com (mjordan@digium.com)> wrote:
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On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 11:14 AM, Paul Albrecht <palbrecht@glccom.com (palbrecht@glccom.com)> wrote:
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On Oct 22, 2014, at 10:33 AM, Joshua Colp <jcolp@digium.com (jcolp@digium.com)> wrote:
| Quote: | Paul Albrecht wrote:
| Quote: | Really? Shouldn’t something this major affecting the entire Asterisk
community get discussed on the lists? Any idea what Leif is talking
about when he says the community is in transition, moving from dial
plan model to external control.
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It was something Ben Klang brought up and wanted to talk about - it's
not something that has been decided 'nor does anyone know what the
future entails. Any further discussions will naturally occur on the
mailing list and in fact some things have explicit action items to bring
them up on here.
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The suggestion that Asterisk should consider deprecating AMI/AGI is “crazy talk.” It doesn’t merit discussion and shouldn’t be on the agenda in the first place. It’s completely impractical and can never happen. Moreover, Leif seems to think we (the asterisk community) are in transition. What does that mean? Are we abandoning the dial plan? Seriously? That’s never gonna happen either. ARI isn’t easier to use than dial plan scripting. I guess one could hope that "what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas”, but I don’t think the Asterisk community has that kind of luck.
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Just because someone decided to bring up a radical idea does not mean we refuse to discuss it.
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So you agree that deprecating AMI/AGI is “crazy talk” but you’ll discuss it because of your open-mindedness?
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I didn't say that the idea of deprecating AMI/AGI is "crazy talk". I did say that radical ideas - and even ones that some folks think are crazy - are all fine to discuss at AstriDevCon.
The whole point of AstriDevCon is to have a large, free, and open conversation about Asterisk Development. I fundamentally disagree with the notion that that should be discouraged.
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The problem with AstriConDev is there is no user input so what you have is a developer echo chamber and what you get is groupthink.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Quote: | This is an open source project. Communication is done in an open, transparent manner. People should feel like they can bring up interesting, radical, and yes - even crazy - ideas.
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By the same token, when you propose ideas, you must be prepared for honest criticism and accept it in graciously rather than simply resorting to argument ad hominem.
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You didn't have honest criticism. You labelled a discussion point as "crazy talk" and said we shouldn't have even discussed it.
There was no ad hominem attack. I never attacked you. I never even attacked your statements. I simply defended the free exchange of ideas in AstriDevCon. I have no problem doing that.
On the other hand, you did callously label an Asterisk Developer's admittedly ambitious idea as "crazy talk". In the future, you may want to choose your language more carefully if you wish for others to have a more open discussion with you.
| Quote: | | Quote: | If you don't like that, you don't have to participate in the discussion.
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You haven’t really responded to the substance of my post, that is, is asterisk abandoning the dial plan?
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There are Asterisk users (who also happen to develop) who would like to minimize the dialplan necessary in their systems, to the point where they may no longer even need the dialplan. This is a fundamentally sound idea for some systems, particularly those that require scaling Asterisk out to many machines.
There are also some Asterisk users who build complex applications on top of Asterisk, and who find having to use multiple interfaces cumbersome. They like ARI, and would like to see it able to do more than what it currently does today.
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Don’t have a problem with extending the Asterisk user interface or changing Asterisk internals that are not visible to users. Do object to taking away taking away user functionality like the dial plan that users expect, are familiar with, and has made the Asterisk project successful.
| Quote: | Fully deprecating a feature in Asterisk is non-trivial. You must have:
(1) A logical and full replacement for the feature
(2) Buy-off from the developer community
(3) Several major versions of the project in which the deprecated feature must remain
Even in the case of point #3, deprecated features have often lasted in *many* versions of Asterisk. We are enormously conservative in what we choose to remove from the project.
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Not interested in what rules or process steps need to be followed to deprecate features. The fact of the matter is you’re not starting with a blank sheet of paper and you can’t simply abandon the existing user interface because what will really happen is your users will abandon you and your project.
| Quote: | I would imagine that things as important as traditional dialplan, AMI, or AGI would be very difficult to ever deprecate.
Finally, as I've noted to you before [1] [2], please don't cross post across lists. As this discussion is about AstriDevCon, it should be on the asterisk-dev mailing list.
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Everybody doesn’t read both lists so I think it’s important to post to both lists because those getting done unto deserve to see what they’re going to get.
Lastly, the veiled threat to boot me from the list thus stifling dissent really belies your repeated assertions of your open-mindedness to different ideas.
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palbrecht at glccom.com
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| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:47 am Post subject: [asterisk-users] AstriDevCon 2014: Agenda item Deprecate AMI |
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On Oct 23, 2014, at 1:55 AM, Olle E Johansson <oej@edvina.net> wrote:
| Quote: | It is critical that a group of developers ask themself questions along
these lines - "what if???"
- What if we removed AGi and AMI?
- What if we made a pluggable PBX?
- What if we restarted working on a SIP channel?
- What if we made a whole new bridge architecture?
- What if we skip the idea of making a PBX?
Good development quite frequently starts with these kind of ideas and
questions that may see crazy but results in really good changes.
Brainstorms needs to be open and not restricted, that is what the
astridevcons are for. We need to go wild and see what comes out of it.
A lot of the great changes we see in Asterisk 13 comes from many years
of wild discussions. Pinemango anyone?
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The unacknowledged problem we’re dealing with is the fact that we’re not starting with a blank sheet of paper, but rather a mature user interface that users expect, are familiar with, and has made project successful. Extending the the user interface is one thing, throwing it away is another entirely different thing. But hey, you have the user's community attention at Astricon, why not have the courage of your convictions and announce to the the unwashed masses you’re planning to do away with the dial plan?
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mjordan at digium.com
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| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 4:04 pm Post subject: [asterisk-users] AstriDevCon 2014: Agenda item Deprecate AMI |
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On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 10:45 AM, Paul Albrecht <palbrecht@glccom.com (palbrecht@glccom.com)> wrote:
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On Oct 23, 2014, at 1:55 AM, Olle E Johansson <oej@edvina.net (oej@edvina.net)> wrote:
| Quote: | It is critical that a group of developers ask themself questions along
these lines - "what if???"
- What if we removed AGi and AMI?
- What if we made a pluggable PBX?
- What if we restarted working on a SIP channel?
- What if we made a whole new bridge architecture?
- What if we skip the idea of making a PBX?
Good development quite frequently starts with these kind of ideas and
questions that may see crazy but results in really good changes.
Brainstorms needs to be open and not restricted, that is what the
astridevcons are for. We need to go wild and see what comes out of it.
A lot of the great changes we see in Asterisk 13 comes from many years
of wild discussions. Pinemango anyone?
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The unacknowledged problem we’re dealing with is the fact that we’re not starting with a blank sheet of paper, but rather a mature user interface that users expect, are familiar with, and has made project successful. Extending the the user interface is one thing, throwing it away is another entirely different thing. But hey, you have the user's community attention at Astricon, why not have the courage of your convictions and announce to the the unwashed masses you’re planning to do away with the dial plan?
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This will be the last time I respond to any of your e-mails on the Asterisk mailing lists or engage with you in any fashion. Your tone, language, and rhetoric are all indicative of someone who is not interested in having a discussion or being a productive member of this open source community.
Good luck with your endeavors.
Matt
--
Matthew Jordan
Digium, Inc. | Engineering Manager
445 Jan Davis Drive NW - Huntsville, AL 35806 - USA
Check us out at: http://digium.com & http://asterisk.org |
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palbrecht at glccom.com
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 3:59 pm Post subject: [asterisk-users] AstriDevCon 2014: Agenda item Deprecate AMI |
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On Oct 29, 2014, at 4:26 PM, Matthew Jordan <mjordan@digium.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Wed, Oct 29, 2014 at 2:31 PM, Paul Albrecht <palbrecht@glccom.com> wrote:
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On Oct 28, 2014, at 5:03 PM, Ben Langfeld <ben@langfeld.me> wrote:
On 28 October 2014 19:47, Derek Andrew <Derek.Andrew@usask.ca> wrote:
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What is the alternative to the dial plan? Is everyone talking about
getting rid of the statements like:
exten => s,1,
what is the alternative?
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Remote applications based on APIs like ARI. This is the start of the
discussion, and please remember that nothing has been decided or even
presented as a robust plan yet. This is brain-storming.
We’re not at the start of the “discussion” to deprecate the dial plan. The
start of the “discussion” began when some developers decided to try standing
Asterisk on its head by adding “asynchronous AGI.” Evidently, that was good
so then they continued the “discussion” by adding ARI/Stasis. Now the
“discussion” is in full career as ARI/Stasis has metastasized beyond its
original scope to encompass all of Asterisk. None of said “discussion” ever
happened on the lists nor was the broader Asterisk community involved as far
as I can determine. A parallel “discussion” was started by a shill at
AstiCon this year to begin to get the “vast unwashed” onboard with
ARI/Stasis, that is, so that Matt could come back from AstiCon claiming that
the broader Asterisk community is in agreement that ARI/Stasis is the future
of Asterisk and that the dial plan can be deprecated. The inevitable result
of these parallel paths is a completely predictable train wreck when the
developers designing features that users don’t want crash into users who
have been using Asterisk as originally designed.
Additionally, note that the original proposal was to deprecate AMI/AGI in
favour of ARI once it is feature complete with those protocols; an entirely
lesser change than the removal of the dialplan in its entirety.
So you're saying that deprecating the dial plan is not on the table? How
then do you explain statements like this: "Leif: we're in a transition,
moving from dialplan model to external control model. Probably need
external application to be built for us to move completely away from
AMI/AGI.” or this "Paul: take away apps, and whatever is in the core is
what we should care about.”
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Paul:
This is a notice that you are in violation of the Asterisk community
code of conduct:
https://wiki.asterisk.org/wiki/display/AST/Asterisk+Community+Code+of+Conduct
You have repeatedly insulted members of the Asterisk community using
derogatory language that is inappropriate for this mailing list. This
creates a hostile atmosphere that makes it difficult for productive
communication to occur, which is the lifeblood of this open source
project. Members of an open source community should not feel like they
are under attack merely for expressing an opinion. While we value the
opinions you bring to the discussion, your tone and choice of language
is completely inappropriate and will not be tolerated.
If you continue to use inflammatory language and rhetoric, you will be
banned from participation in the Asterisk project.
Matt
--
Matthew Jordan
Digium, Inc. | Engineering Manager
445 Jan Davis Drive NW - Huntsville, AL 35806 - USA
Check us out at: http://digium.com & http://asterisk.org
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--
_____________________________________________________________________
-- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com --
New to Asterisk? Join us for a live introductory webinar every Thurs:
http://www.asterisk.org/hello
asterisk-users mailing list
To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit:
http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users |
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