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brent at texascountryt...
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:52 am    Post subject: [asterisk-users] Asterisk 1.6 vs 1.4? Reply with quote

Is there some location that outlines the major differences between
Asterisk version 1.4 and version 1.6? I've read through change logs and
several technical discussions, but technical details don't really give
me the big picture. Basically, is 1.6 more stable than 1.4? Is it more
efficient? Does it work better with echo cancelers like Oslec? I'm
currently using Asterisk as a PBX for our branch offices and will soon
be converting our main office. Our goal is to be able to have 2 analog
lines at each office, calls come in to each PBX and are routed by VOIP
to a receptionist at one of the offices who then routes calls
appropriately. We're currently using Asterisk 1.4.19, Zaptel 1.4.10,
Oslec SVN, Rhino R4FXO-EC cards, and Snom 300 Phones. All of our
branch offices have 1MBPS DSL connections and are linked to each other
by VPN's running on our Cisco 1720 routers. Our only problem so far is
with intermittent echo on calls. Most of the calls have a little echo
right at first, but it goes away almost immediately as the echo canceler
trains. Every now and then, however, we get a call with terrible echo.
I've put in several e-mails to rhino support asking if the hardware echo
canceler needs something I haven't done but didn't get a response. I
know echo is just something we have deal with when using analog lines,
but I didn't think it would be this big of a problem. All of our
offices are in rural areas where digital lines are unavailable so that
is not an option.

Given this setup, is there any reason for me to switch to Asterisk 1.6
or should I stick with 1.4?

Thanks,
Brent Davidson
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davies147 at gmail.com
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:14 am    Post subject: [asterisk-users] Asterisk 1.6 vs 1.4? Reply with quote

2008/6/4 Brent Davidson <brent at texascountrytitle.com>:
[snip]
Quote:
We're currently using Asterisk 1.4.19, Zaptel 1.4.10,
Oslec SVN, Rhino R4FXO-EC cards, and Snom 300 Phones.
[snip]

Just a small aside...

You go to the trouble of building/using Oslec, and then use hardware
EC? Very odd. Does Oslec understand about not doing EC if the hardware
is doing EC? I imagine this is brokered by Zaptel, but am not sure.
Perhaps you are doing double-EC and causing breakage?

Just a random thought.
Steve
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mwatson at becon.org
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:34 am    Post subject: [asterisk-users] Asterisk 1.6 vs 1.4? Reply with quote

Have you tuned rxgain & txgain in Zapata.conf? <shameless-self-plug> http://www.mattgwatson.ca/2008/05/howto-tune-zaptel-dahdi-fxo-interfaces-on-asterisk-pbx/ </plug>

Also, have you used fxotune to tune each FXO interface?

I believe echo cancellation happens at the Zaptel / DAHDI level, so using Asterisk 1.6 probably isn't going to give you any benefit.
--
Matt Watson
http://www.mattgwatson.ca


-----Original Message-----
From: asterisk-users-bounces at lists.digium.com [mailto:asterisk-users-bounces at lists.digium.com] On Behalf Of Brent Davidson
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 11:52 AM
To: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial Discussion
Subject: [asterisk-users] Asterisk 1.6 vs 1.4?

Is there some location that outlines the major differences between
Asterisk version 1.4 and version 1.6? I've read through change logs and
several technical discussions, but technical details don't really give
me the big picture. Basically, is 1.6 more stable than 1.4? Is it more
efficient? Does it work better with echo cancelers like Oslec? I'm
currently using Asterisk as a PBX for our branch offices and will soon
be converting our main office. Our goal is to be able to have 2 analog
lines at each office, calls come in to each PBX and are routed by VOIP
to a receptionist at one of the offices who then routes calls
appropriately. We're currently using Asterisk 1.4.19, Zaptel 1.4.10,
Oslec SVN, Rhino R4FXO-EC cards, and Snom 300 Phones. All of our
branch offices have 1MBPS DSL connections and are linked to each other
by VPN's running on our Cisco 1720 routers. Our only problem so far is
with intermittent echo on calls. Most of the calls have a little echo
right at first, but it goes away almost immediately as the echo canceler
trains. Every now and then, however, we get a call with terrible echo.
I've put in several e-mails to rhino support asking if the hardware echo
canceler needs something I haven't done but didn't get a response. I
know echo is just something we have deal with when using analog lines,
but I didn't think it would be this big of a problem. All of our
offices are in rural areas where digital lines are unavailable so that
is not an option.

Given this setup, is there any reason for me to switch to Asterisk 1.6
or should I stick with 1.4?

Thanks,
Brent Davidson

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rob at hillis.dyndns.org
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:00 pm    Post subject: [asterisk-users] Asterisk 1.6 vs 1.4? Reply with quote

Brent Davidson wrote:
Quote:
We're currently using Asterisk 1.4.19, Zaptel 1.4.10,
Oslec SVN, Rhino R4FXO-EC cards, and Snom 300 Phones.

Why on earth are you running two layers of echo cancellation - hardware
and software? To be honest, I think this is asking for trouble - I've
seen two occasions where having Oslec and hardware echo cancellation has
caused significant problems with audio quality - the usual symptoms are
gaps in the conversation as the hardware cancellation eliminates the
majority of the echo and the software cancellation subsequently
eliminates parts of the conversation.
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tzafrir.cohen at xorco...
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:20 pm    Post subject: [asterisk-users] Asterisk 1.6 vs 1.4? Reply with quote

On Thu, Jun 05, 2008 at 03:00:01AM +1000, Rob Hillis wrote:
Quote:
Brent Davidson wrote:
Quote:
We're currently using Asterisk 1.4.19, Zaptel 1.4.10,
Oslec SVN, Rhino R4FXO-EC cards, and Snom 300 Phones.

Why on earth are you running two layers of echo cancellation - hardware
and software? To be honest, I think this is asking for trouble - I've
seen two occasions where having Oslec and hardware echo cancellation has
caused significant problems with audio quality - the usual symptoms are
gaps in the conversation as the hardware cancellation eliminates the
majority of the echo and the software cancellation subsequently
eliminates parts of the conversation.

If you use a hardware EC (or technically: a span-specific echo
cancellation method) the generic Zaptel echo canceller (software-based,
OSLEC in this case) will not be used.

--
Tzafrir Cohen
icq#16849755 jabber:tzafrir.cohen at xorcom.com
+972-50-7952406 mailto:tzafrir.cohen at xorcom.com
http://www.xorcom.com iax:guest at local.xorcom.com/tzafrir
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rob at hillis.dyndns.org
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:40 pm    Post subject: [asterisk-users] Asterisk 1.6 vs 1.4? Reply with quote

Tzafrir Cohen wrote:
Quote:
On Thu, Jun 05, 2008 at 03:00:01AM +1000, Rob Hillis wrote:

Quote:
Why on earth are you running two layers of echo cancellation - hardware
and software? To be honest, I think this is asking for trouble - I've
seen two occasions where having Oslec and hardware echo cancellation has
caused significant problems with audio quality - the usual symptoms are
gaps in the conversation as the hardware cancellation eliminates the
majority of the echo and the software cancellation subsequently
eliminates parts of the conversation.

If you use a hardware EC (or technically: a span-specific echo
cancellation method) the generic Zaptel echo canceller (software-based,
OSLEC in this case) will not be used.

That's not always been my experience with OSLEC. HPEC and the generic
Zaptel echo canceller seem to work this way, but as I've said, I've had
two cases where I've had to remove OSLEC to stop it degrading voice
quality where there is a hardware echo canceller in play.
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brent at texascountryt...
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:32 pm    Post subject: [asterisk-users] Asterisk 1.6 vs 1.4? Reply with quote

Tzafrir Cohen wrote:
Quote:
On Thu, Jun 05, 2008 at 03:00:01AM +1000, Rob Hillis wrote:

Quote:
Brent Davidson wrote:

Quote:
We're currently using Asterisk 1.4.19, Zaptel 1.4.10,
Oslec SVN, Rhino R4FXO-EC cards, and Snom 300 Phones.

Why on earth are you running two layers of echo cancellation - hardware
and software? To be honest, I think this is asking for trouble - I've
seen two occasions where having Oslec and hardware echo cancellation has
caused significant problems with audio quality - the usual symptoms are
gaps in the conversation as the hardware cancellation eliminates the
majority of the echo and the software cancellation subsequently
eliminates parts of the conversation.


If you use a hardware EC (or technically: a span-specific echo
cancellation method) the generic Zaptel echo canceller (software-based,
OSLEC in this case) will not be used.


Is there any indication of this in Zaptel? This is the output of my
ztcfg -vv:

Zaptel Version: 1.4.10
Echo Canceller: Oslec
Configuration
======================


Channel map:

Channel 01: FXS Kewlstart (Default) (Slaves: 01)
Channel 02: FXS Kewlstart (Default) (Slaves: 02)

2 channels to configure.

I removed Oslec when I first installed the R4FXO-EC cards, but echo was
terrible and made the calls unusable. My gut instinct is telling me
that my hardware echo cancellation is not working.

Thanks,
Brent
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brent at texascountryt...
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:34 pm    Post subject: [asterisk-users] Asterisk 1.6 vs 1.4? Reply with quote

Matt Watson wrote:
Quote:
Have you tuned rxgain & txgain in Zapata.conf? <shameless-self-plug> http://www.mattgwatson.ca/2008/05/howto-tune-zaptel-dahdi-fxo-interfaces-on-asterisk-pbx/ </plug>

Also, have you used fxotune to tune each FXO interface?

I believe echo cancellation happens at the Zaptel / DAHDI level, so using Asterisk 1.6 probably isn't going to give you any benefit.


--
Matt Watson
http://www.mattgwatson.ca


FXOTune is apparently not compatible with the R4FXO cards. Here is the
output:

fxotune -i
Tuning module /dev/zap/1
Unable to set impedance on fd 4
Failure!
Tuning module /dev/zap/2
Unable to set impedance on fd 4
Failure!
/dev/zap/3 absent: No such device or address
/dev/zap/4 absent: No such device or address
/dev/zap/5 absent: No such file or directory
/dev/zap/6 absent: No such file or directory
/dev/zap/7 absent: No such file or directory
.
. {multiple lines of same basic message edited out}
.
/dev/zap/246 absent: No such file or directory
/dev/zap/247 absent: No such file or directory
/dev/zap/248 absent: No such file or directory
/dev/zap/249 absent: No such file or directory
/dev/zap/250 absent: No such file or directory
/dev/zap/251 absent: No such file or directory
/dev/zap/252 absent: No such file or directory
Unable to tune 2 devices, even though those devices are present
Thanks,
Brent
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brent at texascountryt...
Guest





PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 3:13 pm    Post subject: [asterisk-users] Asterisk 1.6 vs 1.4? Reply with quote

Just an update. I tried updating to the newest Rhino Release firmware
1.15 and newest stable driver version 2.2.6. It works OK with
zaptel-1.4.9.2 and compiles OK with 1.4.10.1 but when compiled against
zaptel 1.4.10.1 Asterisk does not see any zap channels. I'm currently
running one branch office with the upgraded firmware, driver,
zaptel-1.4.9.2 and Asterisk-1.4.20.1. I'll see how everything goes
there and may upgrade the other offices if it works OK.

Thanks,
Brent
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tzafrir.cohen at xorco...
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 4:57 am    Post subject: [asterisk-users] Asterisk 1.6 vs 1.4? Reply with quote

On Thu, Jun 05, 2008 at 03:40:14AM +1000, Rob Hillis wrote:
Quote:
Tzafrir Cohen wrote:
Quote:
On Thu, Jun 05, 2008 at 03:00:01AM +1000, Rob Hillis wrote:

Quote:
Why on earth are you running two layers of echo cancellation - hardware
and software? To be honest, I think this is asking for trouble - I've
seen two occasions where having Oslec and hardware echo cancellation has
caused significant problems with audio quality - the usual symptoms are
gaps in the conversation as the hardware cancellation eliminates the
majority of the echo and the software cancellation subsequently
eliminates parts of the conversation.

If you use a hardware EC (or technically: a span-specific echo
cancellation method) the generic Zaptel echo canceller (software-based,
OSLEC in this case) will not be used.

That's not always been my experience with OSLEC. HPEC and the generic
Zaptel echo canceller seem to work this way, but as I've said, I've had
two cases where I've had to remove OSLEC to stop it degrading voice
quality where there is a hardware echo canceller in play.

Unless there are some really strange OSLEC patches floating around, of
which I'm not aware, this should not be the case.

OSLEC uses exactly the same EC interface to Asterisk as the built-in
one and HPEC do. Any chance you didn't actually fully unload zaptel?

--
Tzafrir Cohen
icq#16849755 jabber:tzafrir.cohen at xorcom.com
+972-50-7952406 mailto:tzafrir.cohen at xorcom.com
http://www.xorcom.com iax:guest at local.xorcom.com/tzafrir
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rob at hillis.dyndns.org
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 6:28 am    Post subject: [asterisk-users] Asterisk 1.6 vs 1.4? Reply with quote

Tzafrir Cohen wrote:
Quote:
On Thu, Jun 05, 2008 at 03:40:14AM +1000, Rob Hillis wrote:

Quote:
Quote:
If you use a hardware EC (or technically: a span-specific echo
cancellation method) the generic Zaptel echo canceller (software-based,
OSLEC in this case) will not be used.

That's not always been my experience with OSLEC. HPEC and the generic
Zaptel echo canceller seem to work this way, but as I've said, I've had
two cases where I've had to remove OSLEC to stop it degrading voice
quality where there is a hardware echo canceller in play.

Unless there are some really strange OSLEC patches floating around, of
which I'm not aware, this should not be the case.

OSLEC uses exactly the same EC interface to Asterisk as the built-in
one and HPEC do. Any chance you didn't actually fully unload zaptel?


These weren't installs that we'd done - in both instances, they were
companies who had bought Trixbox based systems from someone else who had
subsequently gone out of business. Granted, I had /assumed/ that OSLEC
was causing problems by not disabling itself properly when hardware echo
cancellation was found - and I guess that assumption stuck when the
removal of OSLEC resolved the problem.
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tzafrir.cohen at xorco...
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 6:50 am    Post subject: [asterisk-users] Asterisk 1.6 vs 1.4? Reply with quote

On Thu, Jun 05, 2008 at 09:28:52PM +1000, Rob Hillis wrote:
Quote:


Tzafrir Cohen wrote:
Quote:
On Thu, Jun 05, 2008 at 03:40:14AM +1000, Rob Hillis wrote:

Quote:
Quote:
If you use a hardware EC (or technically: a span-specific echo
cancellation method) the generic Zaptel echo canceller (software-based,
OSLEC in this case) will not be used.

That's not always been my experience with OSLEC. HPEC and the generic
Zaptel echo canceller seem to work this way, but as I've said, I've had
two cases where I've had to remove OSLEC to stop it degrading voice
quality where there is a hardware echo canceller in play.

Unless there are some really strange OSLEC patches floating around, of
which I'm not aware, this should not be the case.

OSLEC uses exactly the same EC interface to Asterisk as the built-in
one and HPEC do. Any chance you didn't actually fully unload zaptel?


These weren't installs that we'd done - in both instances, they were
companies who had bought Trixbox based systems from someone else who had
subsequently gone out of business. Granted, I had /assumed/ that OSLEC
was causing problems by not disabling itself properly when hardware echo
cancellation was found - and I guess that assumption stuck when the
removal of OSLEC resolved the problem.

Trixbox has (had?) an earlier version of OSLEC that failed to properly
handle the echo training function. And it also sets echotraining=800
(which is probably is not such a good idea anyway nowadays).

That combination causes bad audio. Disable echo traning and/or upgrade
OSLEC.

--
Tzafrir Cohen
icq#16849755 jabber:tzafrir.cohen at xorcom.com
+972-50-7952406 mailto:tzafrir.cohen at xorcom.com
http://www.xorcom.com iax:guest at local.xorcom.com/tzafrir
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rizwanhasham at gmail.com
Guest





PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:37 am    Post subject: [asterisk-users] Asterisk 1.6 vs 1.4? Reply with quote

Brent, hope your problems go away soon.

I am actually interested in the topic of this post. Ast 1.6 vs 1.4. We are
using asterisk 1.4.2 for a SIP only based configuration. Currently we have
about 200 SIP users which can cause approximately upto 3 simultaneous calls.
We are mainly concerned about the performance and stability of asterisk when
the load increases. Our server can handle about 100 simultaneous calls
having 3Ghz Dual Intl-Xeon Processor with 2GB of ram using G711 codec, and
around 30 simultanoeus calls using G729 codec. This we are expecting from
the hardware. We are planning to accomodate about 5,000 users on this
server.

Before the release of 1.6 i heard that its architecture is going to be
different from 1.2 and 1.4. Recently i read an article about
freeswitch<http://freeswitch.org/node/117>,
which explains how its functionality is like asterisk but it can perform
better than asterisk due to its architectural differences. The main
developer for freeswitch is anthony who also codes for asterisk. He
explaines why the architecture of asterisk needs to be changed which
requires massive recoding, but nobody took the step to do it. Thats why he
started freeswitch on his own to redifine the architecture, so that the
performance and reliability of the switch should be better than asterisk. In
his article he has already said that freeswitch beats asterisk by a factor
of 10.

If asterisk architecture is being rewritten in 1.6 to achive the same goal,
then we will be happy to use 1.6 instead of shifting the whole system to
freeswitch. We dont have any problem or issues with 1.4.2 yet. We are mainly
concerned about the its performance when the load increases. If 1.6 is more
reliable under heavy loads then we would like to use it.

If anyone can put some light on this topic, all i can say is thanx for
sharing your thaughts and experiences.

On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 1:13 AM, Brent Davidson <brent at texascountrytitle.com>
wrote:

Quote:
Just an update. I tried updating to the newest Rhino Release firmware
1.15 and newest stable driver version 2.2.6. It works OK with
zaptel-1.4.9.2 and compiles OK with 1.4.10.1 but when compiled against
zaptel 1.4.10.1 Asterisk does not see any zap channels. I'm currently
running one branch office with the upgraded firmware, driver,
zaptel-1.4.9.2 and Asterisk-1.4.20.1. I'll see how everything goes
there and may upgrade the other offices if it works OK.

Thanks,
Brent

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--
Best Regards
Rizwan Hisham
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klitzing at pool.infor...
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:49 am    Post subject: [asterisk-users] Asterisk 1.6 vs 1.4? Reply with quote

Hi!

Quote:
I am actually interested in the topic of this post. Ast 1.6 vs 1.4. We
are using asterisk 1.4.2 for a SIP only based configuration. [...] We
are planning to accomodate about 5,000 users on this server.

Many people on this list will advise you to use a SIP proxy like
OpenSER in front of Asterisk to take care of SIP registrations - I'll do
the same. ;->

Quote:
Before the release of 1.6 i heard that its architecture is going to be
different from 1.2 and 1.4. Recently i read an article about
freeswitch, which explains how its functionality is like asterisk but
it can perform better than asterisk due to its architectural
differences. [...] If asterisk architecture is being rewritten in 1.6
to achive the same goal, then we will be happy to use 1.6 instead of
shifting the whole system to freeswitch.

Looks like you've just decided to move to FreeSwitch ;-> While "early
testing" shows that 1.6 can increase SIP performance compared to 1.4 up
to factor 3-4, this release is by no means a from-the-ground-up re-write
like FreeSwitch.

Read more:
http://www.voip-info.org/wiki/view/Asterisk+v1.6
http://www.voip-info.org/wiki/view/Asterisk+dimensioning

Cheers, Philipp
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brent at texascountryt...
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 1:37 pm    Post subject: [asterisk-users] Asterisk 1.6 vs 1.4? Reply with quote

Philipp von Klitzing wrote:
Quote:
Hi!


Quote:
I am actually interested in the topic of this post. Ast 1.6 vs 1.4. We
are using asterisk 1.4.2 for a SIP only based configuration. [...] We
are planning to accomodate about 5,000 users on this server.


Many people on this list will advise you to use a SIP proxy like
OpenSER in front of Asterisk to take care of SIP registrations - I'll do
the same. ;->



I've seen comments similar to this going around a lot and I've never
really understood it. I guess maybe I won't understand it until I am in
a situation where I need to handle a huge call volume and hundreds or
thousands of users (I.E. probably never). In my situation, using
Asterisk as a distributed PBX with Snom SIP phones I haven't had any
problems at all with the asterisk end of the system. All of my
problems, and I have to stress they are MINOR problems have been related
to interfacing to the analog PSTN. I have not not meshed all of the
branch offices together yet, so I may run into further issues there, but
all of the inter-office calling will be handled by IAX trunking. I
really like these Snom 300 phones as far as audio quality goes. I wish
they had a few more programmable buttons but that was a purchasing
oversight. We underestimated the number of programmable buttons we
would need and opted for the 300 instead of the 360. I also wished they
used IAX. It's fairly obvious during the software update process
thatthey run either a Linux or BSD derivative so it shouldn't be too
difficult to develop an IAX firmware for them, even if it has to be done
by a third party. I wonder why more vendors haven't adopted IAX yet?

-Brent
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